Wrath of Khan Genesis Planet

[Mark 2000]

Most of the engineering personnel were killed or injured in the earlier attacks and the remainder was made up predominantly of cadets.

There still shouldn't have been a reason for Spock to go down there. The cadets should have known how to bring the system back online from merely being turned off and they should have been sending them in one at a time until it was fixed. We're talking about a whole ship of people here and no one's stepping up. McCoy is actively preventing people from going in. And Scotty literally peaks his eye open the second Spock's in the chamber.

DS9Sega and I discussed this once and agreed that there at least should have been a bunch of dead cadets in the chamber when Spock walks in to show that there's something about him that can stand the radiation. But even then there's the McCoy cock block and Scotty faking an illness.

 

[HaventGotALife]

It shouldn't have mattered how many times the system was encountered, it should have been accurately mapped if they knew there was a class M planet there - one known to be wild at that. And they had enough info to know there was another planet in the system that was a candidate for experimentation.

Right. One thing that TV/movie sci-fi writers often forget is that there are no horizons in space. You don't have to get close to a place to map it. Right now, in real life, we're discovering hundreds of exoplanets around other stars dozens, hundreds, sometimes even thousands of light-years away. With a sensitive enough telescope, you can see anything in space at any distance, so long as there isn't a nebula or something blocking your line of sight. So by all rights, the Federation should've had accurate charts of the planets of the Ceti Alpha system even if they'd never been there.

This was made in 1982, long before Hubble was strong enough to chart from Earth's orbit.

 

[HaventGotALife]

Guys, Spock has helped with the engines since the beginning of the series run. I point to Naked Time for a prime example. All these engineers and he's the one coming up with the calculations. Spock went blind, people. Look at the scene when he walks towards Kirk; he bumps into the transparency. What he did caused him to lose his sight. You want 20 cadets, without a chief engineer to tell them what to do, to suddenly pile into the room to fix the mains? What? They are a bunch of cadets! Only Scotty could perform the task.

Not to mention: "He stayed at his post, while the trainees ran." This is a scared bunch of kids. Spock committed a sacrifice of one to save a ship full of people. He did it out of friendship to Kirk. He proved how to win a no-win situation. He used his death as a gift to others. And you can get all technical as you want. He died in a very poetic fashion and it's part of the reason why I love this movie so much.

 

[Maurice]

Re the eel: To be fair, the shooting script actually has the eel exit after Bones shoots Chekov with a hypo. If this had been in the film, you could have bought that the eel fled when Bones "soured the milk" with whatever he shot-up Chekov with.

On the other hands, Bones is a moron in the film. Chekov says "He put creatures in our bodies to control our minds," and what does Bones do? He says, "You're safe now..." and doesn't even start to, oh, like EXAMINE the men who just said they'd had creatures put in their bodies. Well...DUH.



138 ANGLE - FAVORING CHEKOV 138

He SCREAMS, horribly, drops his phaser, clutching his
head.

Bones leaps to his side, pulls an injection device from
his belt pack, jabs it into Chekov's arm. Chekov,
almost with a sigh of relief, drops.

KHAN'S VOICE
Terrell? Chekov -- !

BONES
Jim -- for God's sake!

They rush to his side, as do Carol and David.

139 ANGLE - FAVORING CHEKOV 139

From the fallen man's ear, something begins to emerge.

140 VERY CLOSE - CHEKOV'S EAR 140

The Ceti eel crawls out. It has grown quite large.

 

[Mark 2000]

Guys, Spock has helped with the engines since the beginning of the series run.

That's fine. But it doesn't touch on the fact that no one else cared enough to try it themselves and that some guy on the bridge had to get up and travel 20 decks to fix the problem on his own initiative. Kirk sits there like an ass barking orders to the air while Scotty pretends not to hear him and McCoy guards to door to the reactor chamber. It's dumb.

Spock committed a sacrifice of one to save a ship full of people. He did it out of friendship to Kirk. He proved how to win a no-win situation. He used his death as a gift to others. And you can get all technical as you want. He died in a very poetic fashion and it's part of the reason why I love this movie so much.

You could see it this way. Or you could see it as how it really went down which was Nimoy desperately trying to quit Spock for the last 7 years and formulating a death scene that's mostly contrived.

Because in the end for Spock to die "poetically" Kirk has to seem incompetent and indecisive, Scotty has to seem incompetent and cowardly, and McCoy has seem like an idiot who favors everyone dying in an explosion to one person getting fried.

 

[Mr Silver]

That's fine. But it doesn't touch on the fact that no one else cared enough to try it themselves and that some guy on the bridge had to get up and travel 20 decks to fix the problem on his own initiative. Kirk sits there like an ass barking orders to the air while Scotty pretends not to hear him and McCoy guards to door to the reactor chamber. It's dumb.

Scotty was passed out, McCoy wasn't guarding the door he was treating Scotty who was suffering from radiation poisoning. As for how McCoy knew to be there, its not like the other engineers would stand back and not call for help when their department head exposed himself to radiation in order to stop the ship blowing up. As for no one else caring to try it, Its ludicrous to suggest that. Nobody on the ship could have survived the amount of radiation being released. Apart from Scotty, Spock was maybe the only person on board with extensive knowledge about how to fix the problem (we've seen Spock's technical expertise and he is portrayed as a "polymath" through TOS) he likely figured that as Captain, his reponsiblity was to the ship and its crew and wouldn't expect a cadet or any other of his officers to go on a suicide mission when he was perfectly capable of doing it himself (and succeeding).

Or you could see it as how it really went down which was Nimoy desperately trying to quit Spock for the last 7 years and formulating a death scene that's mostly contrived.

Nimoy didn't necassarily want out, he just wanted to do something meaningful in the movie. When Meyer suggested they kill Spock off, Nimoy was intrigued and as an actor (where the art is more important the paycheque) was quite happy to do it, especially when Meyer suggested they include a "possibility" in the film to bring Spock back, should the death of the character backfire with the fanbase.

Because in the end for Spock to die "poetically" Kirk has to seem incompetent and indecisive, Scotty has to seem incompetent and cowardly, and McCoy has seem like an idiot who favors everyone dying in an explosion to one person getting fried.

First things first, they had no idea how to stop the Genesis torpedo. Kirk was doing the best he could to get as far away as possible. McCoy stopped Spock out of concern as a doctor and a friend and since he was down in Engineering, he wasn't exactly sure of how serious the situation was. Its not like Kirk was broadcasting updates. As for Scotty seeming incompetent and cowardly, I beg to differ. When Engineering was smashed in the inital attack, he stayed and took charge, ordering the cadets to use their respirators and get away from the damaged areas. Later on he passed out from exposure to radiation. Scotty's recovering could have been pure shock at noticing Spock inside the reactor room, but then again it could just be a result of whatever treatment McCoy gave him, taking effect.
Scotty couldn't have done anything to stop Spock, except shout at him and demand he gets out of there, if he went in he'd be exposing himself to fatal amounts of radiation (and Spock probably sealed the door anyway).

 

[Mark 2000]

Scotty was passed out, McCoy wasn't guarding the door he was treating Scotty who was suffering from radiation poisoning.

I know McCoy is treating people in engineering. But he also stopped Spock from going in the chamber. Is that arguable? Spock has to knock him out to get by.

As for no one else caring to try it, Its ludicrous to suggest that. Nobody on the ship could have survived the amount of radiation being released.

So what? Spock didn't survive it either. The fact is the ship is going to be destroyed and no one in engineering made an attempt. Who cares if they didn't survive. What part of they were all going to die anyway do you not understand?

Apart from Scotty, Spock was maybe the only person on board with extensive knowledge about how to fix the problem (we've seen Spock's technical expertise and he is portrayed as a "polymath" through TOS)

That's your speculation. I can also speculate that any cadet who's allowed to work in an engineering room can flip the switch in the glowy tube that turns the engines back on.

Nimoy didn't necassarily want out, he just wanted to do something meaningful in the movie.

Have you ever heard of "I Am Not Spock"? Did you know Spock was not going to be in Phase II? He didn't want to do Trek anymore. He very vocally wanted out. It wasn't until the end that he realized he was screwing himself so they added the extra poop at the end. Then he used it as a bargaining chip to direct the next movie. He's said as much.

First things first, they had no idea how to stop the Genesis torpedo. Kirk was doing the best he could to get as far away as possible.

No, he was sitting in his chair barking orders to a dead com link. It should have been Kirk to run down to engineering and see what the hell ws going on instead of sitting on his thumbs. First the guy won't raise shields in an obviously hostile situation that even a cadet knew was going to end up in a shooting match, and now he won't take charge in a fatal situation. He need's Spock to be the hero. This is a lot like TMP where he's also basically so incompetent that Decker needs to step up and be the hero. Kirk was frozen.

McCoy stopped Spock out of concern as a doctor and a friend and since he was down in Engineering, he wasn't exactly sure of how serious the situation was.

Really? The captain screaming like a pussy over the intercom that he needs warp speed in one minute or we're all dead didn't get the point across. So much more reason why Kirk should have gone down to engineering. "Because nothing is more important than my ship!"

Scotty's recovering could have been pure shock at noticing Spock inside the reactor room, but then again it could just be a result of whatever treatment McCoy gave him, taking effect.
Scotty couldn't have done anything to stop Spock, except shout at him and demand he gets out of there, if he went in he'd be exposing himself to fatal amounts of radiation (and Spock probably sealed the door anyway).

Tons of speculation about a poorly written scene in which someone just happens to wake up when their own personal danger in gone. It's like Anakin's mother just happening to die as soon as he gets there.

People need to understand that, dramatically, when you need to make this many rationalizations about a scene then the scene didn't work. One or two of these would be ok, but all of them strain credibility too much. And then this is added to all the other sloppy stuff elsewhere in the movie - like DS9Sega's point about McCoy not checking for Chekov's body creatures.

 

[DonIago]

I shudder to imagine what you must think of the other Trek films then...

 

[Therin of Andor]

http://www.trekbbs.com/member.php?u=4201Poopday Machine, you make it all sound so... unpleasant. If I disliked the ST movies that much, I'm not so sure I'd be drawn into discussing them online. I'd just walk away from the franchise and find another passion, as I know many fans did after their disappointment in TMP, and others with ST IV and TNG. Still more with VOY and ENT.

Is there anything you liked after TOS?

 

[Mark 2000]

Nice stawman/ad hominem.

 

[Mr Silver]

You are way too negative! Sure, TWOK has its fair share of plot holes but its about how the viewer interprets the material on offer to them. And thats exactly what I've tried to do, you've continued to find negatives within everything myself and others have said so therefore, there is no point continuing if you are incapable of coming to a compromise.

You've made some valid points, but you've also included among these points, a very "matter of fact" attitude. It helps to mix factual information, speculation and indifference when posting replies. This is also how diplomacy works. However, on the basis of the terminology you provided in your previous post (although I'm sure you meant "Strawman") you are more accustomed to arguments and debates.

But anyway not to dwell, I appreciate your contributions overall.

 

[Mark 2000]

I find both of your critiques of me offensive and unnecessary. You may not realize it but you are attacking me personally over a movie and because you don't seem to have anything else to add. I could size up your personalities based on your opinions. I have declined. This isn't a mature way of discussing something with someone, honestly.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The Genesis effect is about the customary level of BS "science" for Trek. Marcus says that the device will create "all the conditions necessary to sustain life, and it does - including a star and a planet out of nebular gas.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I find both of your critiques of me offensive and unnecessary. You may not realize it but you are attacking me personally over a movie

Where have you been attacked personally? We are supposed to critique the posts, not the posters. I thought we were seeking clarification of your views, because they do seem at odds to ours. Your recent posts did make me wonder if there were any examples of post-TOS "Star Trek" that you did like.

Wikipedia says to "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

I don't yet understand your original position. How is that offensive or unnecessary?

 

[HaventGotALife]

The Genesis effect is about the customary level of BS "science" for Trek. Marcus says that the device will create "all the conditions necessary to sustain life, and it does - including a star and a planet out of nebular gas.

More than that, look at the Genesis cave. Where is that light coming from?

 

[Maurice]

I personally think, "If you don't like it, get out," reply is for apologists. You can love a thing and still damn it for its failings. It's precisely because you love it that you can be so passionate in discussing its flaws.

There are a LOT of dumb things in TWOK. The film has good points, certainly, but it's got flaws and you can rationalize them away or admit they're oversights/mistakes. The sad thing is, almost all of them could have been fixed ON THE PAGE, but they weren't (in some way understandable given Meyer's two-week last-minute rewrite).

As to Spock going down to engineering, let's revisit what happens in the film:

• Scotty reports, "Admiral, I've got to take the mains off the line. it's -- radiation --" and collapses.
• A bit later Kirk calls and says, "Scotty, I need warp speed in three minutes or we're all dead!" But gets no reply. Spock immediately leaves.
• Spock arrives and McCoy is treating an engineering trainee. McCoy tries to stop Spock.

At this point it looks as if the radiation already got to some of the engineers to some degree which is why they're slumped around, but...

• After Spock goes into the radiation room Scotty suddenly is awake and yelling at Spock to get out

...and...

• As soon as Spock is in the radiation room we see trainee engineers (trainees have red collars) standing around in the background, so it's not likely they're all out for the count.
• By the time Kirk gets down there we see at least FIVE black-collared engineers (not trainees) alive and kicking

So, for this sequence of events to work requires us to

1. Know/believe that communications with engineering were out and no one got the "three minutes or we're all dead message", which is why no one's risked their lives prior to Spock's arrival
2. That Kirk was too dumb to send anyone down to make sure the message got through when he got no response

 

[Brutal Strudel]

The movie does strongly suggest that Spock (and maybe Saavik) is the only crew member who can withstand the radiation long enough to get the mains back on-line.

 

[DonIago]

Doesn't the movie actually state that explicitly during the dialogue between Spock and McCoy?

Okay, granted it's McCoy who says it, but even so-

217 INT. ENTERPRISE ENGINE ROOM 217

Spock rushes in. Bones ministers to Scotty, b.g.

Spock sizes up the situation, starts for the radiation
room, Bones intercepts him.

BONES
Are you out of your Vulcan mind?
No human can tolerate the radiation
loose in there!

SPOCK
But, as you are so fond of observing,
Doctor, I'm not human.

 

[Mark 2000]

I don't yet understand your original position. How is that offensive or unnecessary?

I'll respond to you as if you actually don't know. The topic is the merits of a scene in a film. You turned it into a discussion about me personally. "Well what do you like?" "Are you even a fan?" Those a personal attacks. I now have to defend myself, not my position. It's also a diversionary tactic to what seems like a similar argument that you think you can win because you've run out of anything to say about the original argument.

It would be as if I said "You're so in love with this movie. Did you direct it? Are you making a profit from its continued sales? Do you just blindly like Star Trek or is there anything in any other movie you actually don't like?" Those would all be equivalent statements to what you said. You would probably take offense at them. If this didn't occur to you then you need to brush up on your conversational skills.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The vast majority of flaws pointed out in this thread are bona fide flaws. Keep 'em coming.

None of this prevents me from enjoying and loving the movie. Heck, there isn't a single flaw that's been pointed out here that I didn't already notice years ago.

I found nothing to "wrestle with" though. Every Star Trek movie, and every episode, has flaws. The best episodes, and the good films, are simply those whose flaws shrink before their good points.

In fact, I've never seen a flawless science fiction movie, period, and my favorite movie of all time, 2001: A Space Odyssey, is a science fiction movie. Despite being widely hailed as "technically perfect", it has all kinds of flaws, and some of them are quite bone-headed .