I misspoke. When I said "producers," I was referring to UPN.
Wow to think I almost started to read the Shattner books.
- Thread starter GalaxyClass1701
- Start date
I misspoke. When I said "producers," I was referring to UPN.
Personally, I love the Shatnerverse. I think "Ashes of Eden", "Avenger" and "Spectre" are the best of the bunch, though with their share of flaws, and I enjoy "The Return" for what it is: A fun-filled, action romp. I also like "Dark Victory", though less so than the others, and "Captain's Peril" is enjoyable, if not a bit boring, but "Preserver" and "Captain's Blood" are heavily flawed, and are IMO the weakest of the series - and for different reasons. That said, I found "Captain's Glory" superb, and a fitting conclusion to the series.
IMO, "Ashes of Eden" should fit perfectly with the current Trek novel-verse. Aside from the "Return"-referee chapters, its extremely compelling, and insightful for its handling of Kirk. Plus, it shows the best fate for Enterprise-A.
That said, I think that even "Return" and "Avenger" should've been allowed to fit. There's nothing wrong with Kirk coming back and then facing his nightmare (as alluded in TFF) in a context that allowed him to. I can understand not counting the MU novels (because of ENT) and the Captain series (because of the inconsistencies Christopher mentioned), but the first three seemingly don't conflict anything. The Borg planet that repaired V'Ger at was but one base for them, the virus that plagues the Federation is, like FC, an important event whose non-mention wouldn't mean invalidation (just like the one-line mention of the events of FC didn't mean disrespect to that film's important events), and Kirk's overall re-appearence but non-mention can be considered one of the most well-kept secrets in the Federation.
In the end, I think it all has to do with how much desire there is for either TPTB or the force behind today's novel-verse to having a characterization from a novel series that started back in a time when, as said, novels ignored each other all the time. But IMO, I think there's just no real desire to have Kirk around in the 24th century, thinking (incorrectly, IMO), that his death was a contrivance and not a possible scenario.
Why do I think thats incorrectly perceived? Because its Star Trek. As long as its well-written, anything is possible. The sky's the limit!
IMO, "Ashes of Eden" should fit perfectly with the current Trek novel-verse. Aside from the "Return"-referee chapters, its extremely compelling, and insightful for its handling of Kirk. Plus, it shows the best fate for Enterprise-A.
That said, I think that even "Return" and "Avenger" should've been allowed to fit. There's nothing wrong with Kirk coming back and then facing his nightmare (as alluded in TFF) in a context that allowed him to. I can understand not counting the MU novels (because of ENT) and the Captain series (because of the inconsistencies Christopher mentioned), but the first three seemingly don't conflict anything. The Borg planet that repaired V'Ger at was but one base for them, the virus that plagues the Federation is, like FC, an important event whose non-mention wouldn't mean invalidation (just like the one-line mention of the events of FC didn't mean disrespect to that film's important events), and Kirk's overall re-appearence but non-mention can be considered one of the most well-kept secrets in the Federation.
In the end, I think it all has to do with how much desire there is for either TPTB or the force behind today's novel-verse to having a characterization from a novel series that started back in a time when, as said, novels ignored each other all the time. But IMO, I think there's just no real desire to have Kirk around in the 24th century, thinking (incorrectly, IMO), that his death was a contrivance and not a possible scenario.
Why do I think thats incorrectly perceived? Because its Star Trek. As long as its well-written, anything is possible. The sky's the limit!
The idea that the Borg had anything to do with V'Ger is nonsense. The Borg are half-organic. V'Ger didn't even know what organic life was. Not to mention that V'Ger was a damn sight more advanced and powerful than the Borg. The differences immensely outweigh the vague similarities. Even The Return had to throw in a lengthy handwave about there being different branches of Borg or whatever in order to justify the claim.
And the V'Ger backstory I established in Ex Machina completely -- and intentionally -- contradicts what The Return claimed.
And the V'Ger backstory I established in Ex Machina completely -- and intentionally -- contradicts what The Return claimed.
I disagree, but what do I know?
All I know is that it made sense to me, because Borg don't perceive themselves as organic (the Borg Queen pretty much said so in FC), and V'Ger could still get the enhancement from a branch of the Borg but still outdo that enhancement. The Borg didn't make the all-powerful being that it was in TMP, but rather made the first step to that road.
And I know that Ex Machina contradicted Return. And by your comment of how intentional that was, it only proves my hypothesis to have a stand: No real desire to connect to that series out of dislike of elements of it.
All I know is that it made sense to me, because Borg don't perceive themselves as organic (the Borg Queen pretty much said so in FC), and V'Ger could still get the enhancement from a branch of the Borg but still outdo that enhancement. The Borg didn't make the all-powerful being that it was in TMP, but rather made the first step to that road.
And I know that Ex Machina contradicted Return. And by your comment of how intentional that was, it only proves my hypothesis to have a stand: No real desire to connect to that series out of dislike of elements of it.
I like how in "Captain's Peril", Kirk is unsure as to how to solve the mystery told within, and how he wishes Picard hadn't "died" (he doesn't, no worry) and had it solved way sooner. Reminds of Picard's holodeck adventures as a detective.
But at least the Borg know what humanoid beings are. They know they're sentient living things rather than just a carbon-based infestation.
If so, then why hasn't any "branch of the Borg" evolved to a comparable level? Why are they so much more primitive by comparison?
It's not impossible to rationalize some connection if you're willing to stretch logic enough, but it's not particularly plausible or likely. It's just another example of the kind of sloppy small-universe thinking that fans and writers sometimes practice -- seeing a vague, superficial similarity between two things and assuming they must be related even if they have to gloss over a dozen enormous contradictions to make it work. Like assuming that the First Humanoids from "The Chase" were the same as the Preservers even though they lived 4 billion years too early and had a completely different modus operandi. Or assuming Trelane was a Q even though he needed technological assistance to pull off his tricks. It's just illogical to assume that a cursory similarity means two things are related. It's a huge, huge universe, and the odds are literally astronomical that any similarity between two random things is a coincidence, especially if it's outweighed by humongous differences between them.
If your hypothesis is that that's a consistent policy, then my own isolated choices don't constitute proof of it. A single case doesn't prove a pattern.
The books are hilarious I think.
70 year old Kirk beating up Worf and Riker with ease, Troi and Crusher barely able to control their feelings of lust for kirk, Kirk pulling a lever to kill the borg collective, Kirk and Picard going on holiday together.
They are a lot of fun imo if you dont take them too seriously
70 year old Kirk beating up Worf and Riker with ease, Troi and Crusher barely able to control their feelings of lust for kirk, Kirk pulling a lever to kill the borg collective, Kirk and Picard going on holiday together.
They are a lot of fun imo if you dont take them too seriously
^You missed out Mirror Janeway lusting for Kirk 
.
I love the Shatnerverse. Shamelessly. It's the Treklit equivelent of the Transformers films. It didn't all make sense, you've got an explosion-overload headache by the end, you probably won't want to go through it ever again, but it was really entertaining!
And Project Sign are brilliant, once you've learned who/what they really are.
.I love the Shatnerverse. Shamelessly. It's the Treklit equivelent of the Transformers films. It didn't all make sense, you've got an explosion-overload headache by the end, you probably won't want to go through it ever again, but it was really entertaining!
And Project Sign are brilliant, once you've learned who/what they really are.
The funniest one yet is Q-Squared, I think. Oh, wait...
Meanwhile, 75 year old Picard (still a Captain) and Crusher married and had a kid in 2380 in the novelverse, no?
Plus, Kirk was in his mid 50's when he faced Worf and co., and he was under the influence of the Borg nanites, too (weak, I know, but 70 years old?).
And lust from Troi and Crusher? Where the hell did you read that up?
When you don't want to, sure. Unlike me, however, who reads all Trek novels with the same attitude: More Trek stories.
That was mirror Janeway - and why would that be impossible? I don't get it.^You missed out Mirror Janeway lusting for Kirk
And no, I'm not a Shatner fan, just a Trek fan who liked Kirk enough and can see over the falws on each book.
They may not be the best out there (KRAD, I still love your "Articles of the Federation"), but they're as highly entertaining as any Trek could ever hope to be.
Yes, its obviously a bit too Shatner-ego-filled, but it doesn't detract me from my enjoyment of the stories - which, when they're good, they're as good as they can get. And besides, the Reeves-Stevens contribute too, adding a great layer in both writing and detail.
Its only sad that, as Christopher mentioned, that the Captain series is very contradictory to the novelverse. Still, I can still enjoy them for the Trek novels that they are.
So? How is it impossible for them to have repaired V'Ger? I fail to see the implausibility in the idea.
Thats like asking why hasn't the mother of a kid who has 250 IQ gotten as smarter as a result. Its the compilation of effort and knowledge that, though given from the Borg, accumulated into V'Ger's consciousness to something more.
And yet, by all accounts, "Q-Squared", the very novel that made Trelane into Q, is part of the novelverse (at least according to "Q & A"). And besides, the small-universe syndrome is neither exclusive to the Shatnerverse nor the era in which those novels were published.
In the end, it doesn't really matter. Sure, it can sound reaching, but in the end, what does matter to the reader (me, and others as well, of course), is how the reader perceives it. Its more important to tell a something well, than just to say it, after all.
Except the continued unwillingness to include any elements of that series into the "canon" novelverse. If there was a desire to aknowledge even one of the novels (Ashes comes to mind), it would have been.
If you're trying to say that the conception of a child at age 75 (something which is not uncommon even today) is in any way equivalent to beating up a far younger, larger opponent from a species with superhuman strength, that just doesn't even begin to make sense.
No. At the time of Generations he was 60 years old (2233 to 2293).
If I haven't made my point clear to you by now, you're just not trying to see it. V'Ger has nothing in common with the Borg besides the fact that they're both technologically based. You might as well assume that a palm tree gave birth to a polar bear because they're both organic.
That's just giving the Borg wayyy too much credit, and ignoring yet another of the IMMENSE contradictions between V'Ger and the Borg. V'Ger is a cybernetic entity that evolved and grew. Borg are incapable of evolution or growth except by stealing "biological and technological distinctiveness" from other species. The two could not be more diametrically opposite. If Borg technology had the potential to produce anything like V'Ger, they wouldn't be the Borg. They wouldn't be the pathetic, limited, hodgepodge techno-zombies that they were. They just don't have it in them to create anything as sublime, as elegant, as complex, as technologically apotheotic as V'Ger.
No, it isn't, because the novelverse is bound by canon, and canon established (in "The Q and the Grey") that the Q had never before procreated. Therefore, it's impossible for Q Squared to have happened in the canonical Trek universe. So any allusion to it in Q & A is just an homage from one work of fiction to another.
Which in no way refutes my point, because I never claimed that it was. I was citing the tendency to link the Borg with V'Ger -- something which has been done in places besides The Return -- as an example of a broader pattern within fandom.
You miss my point. I'm not arguing that there is no such pattern. I'm simply saying that your statement that my own choice constituted "proof" of such a pattern was incorrect, because it requires more than one piece of evidence to prove a thesis. My choice could be one piece of evidence for such a pattern, but is not proof by itself.
The Return seems like something you'd pitch to the editor as an April Fools joke. That or a piece of excessively wanktastic fanfiction. It's entertaining in the same way that Tommy Wiseau is entertaining, not as something that you laugh with, but something that you laugh at.
Don't forget Amanda Rogers. And Trelane's mother in Q-Squared was implied to not be another Q. Which then recontradicts "The Q and the Grey" because Q wanted a hybrid specifically, but you could make the case that Trelane's mother didn't count for his purposes since she was another superbeing, and he was gunning for something a little lower on the totem pole...
Yay, Star Trek continuity!
I found "The Return" pretty entertaining, but it's the only one of Shatner's Trek novels I tried to read.
I take offense in that. I enjoyed the novel despite its flaws, yet never did I see it as a laughable, stupid, incompetent and downright ugly piece of work.
Christopher said:
If you look closely enough, it would be impossible for much of canon Star Trek to happen in the canonical Star Trek universe. It's an illusion of continuity, nothing more.
