Wow, Kirsten Beyer made VOY not suck!

[Thrawn]

Ok, everyone, just want to warn you: Lynx has showed up, and had this *EXACT SAME ARGUMENT OVER JANEWAY'S DEATH* three other times. All three times resulted in long, tremendous multi-thread arguments, during which Lynx's position and logic did not change or become any more coherent.

(See: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=78707, http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=81376, http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=81388, http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=105534, http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=85873, http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=118469)

He only likes the Voyager crew with Kes in it from seasons 1-3, and thinks everything else ruined the chemistry he was so fond of. It's a perfectly legitimate view to have, and nothing anyone says will convince him otherwise.

This thread is about 5 more argumentative responses away from becoming the kind of rollercoaster, 40-page clusterfuck the last couple times Lynx showed up turned into. (Also probably my fault, at couple of those times, I'll admit, but either way, not doing that again.)

Just warning everyone: arguing is pointless. It'll just make you mad.

I would recommend that those of us that find Beyer's direction as remarkable and brilliant as it is continue to talk about that, and avoid being derailed.

 

[Bishop76]

lol - roger that

 

[DeafPoet]

Thanks Thrawn. I don't post in this forum much so I don't know the trolls from the regular folk.

I was about to waste a bunch of time feeding his ass too!

 

[Lynx]

Just want to point out that I'm not a troll.

I'm not posting with the one and only purpose to create trouble. I'm stating my opinion, in this case an opinion which I know is shared with many other Voyager fans.

I've made my points in three posts (including this) and I'm not pursuing this any further.

But I have to point out once more that I get the impression that most of those who pay homage to the current direction of the Voyager books weren't fans of the TV series from the beginning. The title of this thread says it all.

And no, my position or logic will not change in this matter.

 

[DeafPoet]

So, in the name of getting this back on topic, what was everyone's favourite or least favourite plot thread from each novel?

Personally, from "Full Circle" I loved the Prologue and all the Chakotay framing stuff with Cambridge. Chakotay used to be kind of a place-filler for me but he's now obviously the most compelling character in the relaunch. I wasn't as fond of the B'Elanna stuff in the first half of FC. I can appreciate that story's value plot-wise but after the awesome prologue I really wanted to get to the post-Destiny stuff. And that stuff did not disappoint.

My thoughts on "Unworthy" to come later.

 

[LightningStorm]

Thanks Thrawn. I don't post in this forum much so I don't know the trolls from the regular folk.

I was about to waste a bunch of time feeding his ass too!

Calling someone a troll is itself trolling and can result in an infraction. Please don't do that.

Also, no, Lynx is not a troll, he's just very dogged in his beliefs and unwavering in his dislike of the recent Voyager events. And arguments do tend to get very repetitive.

 

[Thrawn]

So, in the name of getting this back on topic, what was everyone's favourite or least favourite plot thread from each novel?

Personally, from "Full Circle" I loved the Prologue and all the Chakotay framing stuff with Cambridge. Chakotay used to be kind of a place-filler for me but he's now obviously the most compelling character in the relaunch. I wasn't as fond of the B'Elanna stuff in the first half of FC. I can appreciate that story's value plot-wise but after the awesome prologue I really wanted to get to the post-Destiny stuff. And that stuff did not disappoint.

My thoughts on "Unworthy" to come later.

Even before I read the second half of your post, I was going to answer "Chakotay".

I really think he was the VOY writers' biggest mistake; he had the potential to really be a balance to Janeway, not exactly an antagonistic relationship but definitely have a bit of conflict there, but he just ended up agreeing with her all the time. Then, by halfway through the second season, it was already true that all of his subplots involved him being duped, tricked, lied to, etc and not figuring it out, culminating in Paris leaving the ship without Chakotay in on the plot.

And I don't think he ever recovered after that; he was always the yes-man, always the patsy. The spirituality thing was too generic to really work. And upon getting back, he just instantly gets command of Voyager? Don't think so.

Without spoiling, Beyer brought him back to a position of authority, but really made him earn it. I believed in him by the end of Full Circle in a way that I'd never ever believed in the character on the show, and it was all done organically and intelligently, without retconning or ignoring his character on the show. It was just time for him to shine, and he did. Outstanding.

 

[Bishop76]

So, if I want to skip to the good stuff, where should I start reading the Voy relaunch? With Beyer's first novel? Or do I need a bit more than that?

 

[Thrawn]

So, Christie Golden does relaunch the series, adds characters and plotlines, and her four books stop with some real dangling threads. As a result, I'd say...oh, about a fifth or a quarter of Full Circle is spent dealing with closing those off. If you're willing to just sort of read through that (and it does do a good job explaining backstory), then it won't be a problem, but if you're the kind of reader that wants to know everything that's going on, then you should read Golden's four books.

Certainly, by the end of Full Circle, Golden's plot threads are all gone, so everything you need to know about by the end of the book is introduced within the book. There's just a certain amount of working through prior stuff necessary before it gets there.

Either way, Golden's novels are quick reads, and not as bad as everyone makes them out to be. Just kind of vapid and full of missed opportunities. So, I'd say the real answer is, the annoyance at coming in in the middle of the action (starting with Full Circle) is pretty much balanced out by the annoyance of reading through for short but sub-par novels (starting with Homecoming). Just depends on the kind of reader you are.

 

[Bishop76]

Vapid and full of missed opportunities. So, they're just like the show, then? Gotcha. Thanks once again for the info.

 

[DeafPoet]

Thanks Thrawn. I don't post in this forum much so I don't know the trolls from the regular folk.

I was about to waste a bunch of time feeding his ass too!

Calling someone a troll is itself trolling and can result in an infraction. Please don't do that.

I've been here for ages and I really should know better. Sorry.

So, if I want to skip to the good stuff, where should I start reading the Voy relaunch? With Beyer's first novel? Or do I need a bit more than that?

That's where I started and I had no real problems. There's probably one subplot I got short changed on but it seemed pretty minor.

 

[JD]

I know we're trying to move on, but I just wanted to state that I'm a big fan of Voyager the TV series, but even I'll admit that Beyer's books are better than the majority of the TV episodes.

 

[Thrawn]

^ And while we're at it, I'm a pretty big Janeway fan myself, though probably not for the reasons most Janeway fans are. I thought the interesting thing about her was that she actually lost her moral compass from time to time, and just wouldn't ever accept compromise; I liked imagining her as a rather dark figure.

Regardless, I would've liked to read more about the character, in theory. But it's hard to argue, based on Full Circle and Unworthy, that her death didn't lead to amazing stories, and in general, I support ballsy storytelling of that variety. I'm not much interested in a perpetual unchanging status quo.

 

[Bishop76]

See, I didn't like her BECAUSE she never really had to make super hard decisions that came back to bite her in the ass and she should have had that happen. Thats not really a fault of the character so much as the episodes, but I guess that's a failing of the show in general - it should have been a lot darker than even DS9 as these people fought to survive all the way home, making very hard choices and instead they cakewalked all the way, merrily pressing the reset button at the end of every episode. Hell, the ship looked cleaner than it did when they left the alpha quadrant when they got back.

 

[DeafPoet]

^

That's actually one place in Beyer's novels where the verisimilitude fails. There's lots of talk about 7 years of struggle and hardship in the Delta quadrant when the reality actually wasn't that bad.

That's not really her fault though. I just try and suspend my disbelief and move on.

 

[Snaploud]

^

That's actually one place in Beyer's novels where the verisimilitude fails. There's lots of talk about 7 years of struggle and hardship in the Delta quadrant when the reality actually wasn't that bad.

That's not really her fault though. I just try and suspend my disbelief and move on.

It all makes sense if you assume that it was really like Year of Hell and what we saw on tv was just Janeway's drug-induced captain's log.

 

[Bishop76]

^

Year of he'll is how the show as a whole should have been, just drawn out over the 7 seasons.

 

[chelly]

I liked Voyager all seven years. I only got annoyed with it at the end when the characters (except for Seven and the doctor) got pushed to the background. Well it seemed like they got pushed to the background for the borg version of Barbie and the doctor. I wonder if the easy button used to be the reset button for Voyager.

I have to say for a person who really did not like Seven of Nine, I do like her now after reading Kirsten's books. Now I have to figure out if I like the doctor all that much.

 

[Raisor]

Ok, everyone, just want to warn you: Lynx has showed up, and had this *EXACT SAME ARGUMENT OVER JANEWAY'S DEATH* three other times. All three times resulted in long, tremendous multi-thread arguments, during which Lynx's position and logic did not change or become any more coherent.

.

Can I admit that I've enjoyed the hell out of reading those threads over the last few days? The entertainment value was very high.

(I've been catching up on my board reading. Been around for ten years as a lurker, only have posted a few times).

 

[Thestral]

This is a minor thing, but the only disappointing thing for me about "Full Circle" was the way some of Golden's characters were disposed of. I've not even read the Golden novels, but I quite liked Dr. Kaz, or at least the potential he seemed to have. Plus, in the aftermath of Trill: Unjoined, it was a shame to lose another symbiont.

And for all the whining about Janeway's death, I found Lyssa Campbell's death and the lack of mourning about her to be rather unexpected.