Wouldn't the events at the begining of Star Trek First contact actually have prevented the creation of the Borg (when we seen brefly that earh was assimalted). Since the Borg were created out of a couple 22nd century humans and Caeliar, assimalting Earth in the late 21st century would have prevented the Borg from exisiting.
Wouldn't this have stopped the borg? (Destiny Spoilers)
- Thread starter dave_R_treker
- Start date
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
Nah, they would have been (were?) stopped by the Novikov self-consistency principle...
What?
Nah, they would have been (were?) stopped by the Novikov self-consistency principle...
What?
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
That's not what created the whole Borg race. The resurrected Borg were trying to communicate with their 22nd century Borg counterparts on the homeworld, so its not as if the events of ENT's "Resurrection" kicked off the whole thing.
That's not what created the whole Borg race. The resurrected Borg were trying to communicate with their 22nd century Borg counterparts on the homeworld, so its not as if the events of ENT's "Resurrection" kicked off the whole thing.
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
Well, the Borg would probably be unaware of their 22nd Century origins, given as how they apparently forgot that the first drones were Human and therefore designated Humans Species 5698 as established in "Dark Frontier."
Having said that, this does not preclude the Collective from having been able to simple establish Earth as its new homeworld in an altered timeline in which the NX-02 never made contact with the Caeliar.
Well, the Borg would probably be unaware of their 22nd Century origins, given as how they apparently forgot that the first drones were Human and therefore designated Humans Species 5698 as established in "Dark Frontier."
Having said that, this does not preclude the Collective from having been able to simple establish Earth as its new homeworld in an altered timeline in which the NX-02 never made contact with the Caeliar.
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
^^Clearly a "DESTINY Spoilers" notice should be added to the thread title.
^^Clearly a "DESTINY Spoilers" notice should be added to the thread title.
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
Where/when/how?!
A Borg origin story?!
Where/when/how?!
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
Is that a trilogy?
Which one is the Borg one?
Is that a trilogy?
Which one is the Borg one?
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
^All of them. And beyond that, the "TNG relaunch" (post-Nemesis) books set pre-Destiny have been very Borg heavy as well, with JM Dillard's Resistance, Peter David's Before Dishonor (which also serves as a sequel to his classic Borg novel, Vendetta) and Christopher's Greater than the Sum all dealing with the Borg as well.
^All of them. And beyond that, the "TNG relaunch" (post-Nemesis) books set pre-Destiny have been very Borg heavy as well, with JM Dillard's Resistance, Peter David's Before Dishonor (which also serves as a sequel to his classic Borg novel, Vendetta) and Christopher's Greater than the Sum all dealing with the Borg as well.
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
Another reminder that there are Destiny spoilers ahead (could someone please edit the thread title?):
That's an interesting point. In the timeline we glimpsed early in FC, where Earth was assimilated as a result of the Borg's time travel to 2067, presumably First Contact would never have occurred, we wouldn't have had Earth Starfleet, and there would've been no Columbia crew to encounter the Caeliar. So by trying to create a timeline where the Federation didn't exist, the Borg should've really created one where they didn't exist either.
Ahh, but there is a way out. Time travellers themselves remain insulated from the changes in their own futures. In "Past Tense," Sisko, Bashir, and Dax continued to live in the 2020s even after their actions had changed the future so that the Federation never rose. In "Yesteryear," Spock continued to exist in the past even after the change that erased him from history, and thus could return to the altered future. And at least according to Crucible, McCoy lived on for decades in the 20th century after saving Edith Keeler and preventing the Federation from ever rising.
So by the same token, even though the Borg sphere's actions in that briefly glimpsed timeline (existing "after" they went back and shot up Cochrane's base but "before" the E-E went back to fix things) would've prevented the creation of the Borg in that timeline, the out-of-time Borg from that sphere would still have been around, insulated from the change, refugees from another history. So they could've restarted the Collective all over again in that timeline, with Earth as the first world they assimilated. Thus, we still get the result that the E-E crew glimpsed, the 24th-century Earth that's populated entirely by Borg.
Then, once the Borg in the past were defeated and Cochrane's flight went off as scheduled, history was restored to the path we know, and ironically defeating the Borg brought the whole Collective back into existence. Oopsie! (Not that anyone involved could've known, of course.)
Another reminder that there are Destiny spoilers ahead (could someone please edit the thread title?):
That's an interesting point. In the timeline we glimpsed early in FC, where Earth was assimilated as a result of the Borg's time travel to 2067, presumably First Contact would never have occurred, we wouldn't have had Earth Starfleet, and there would've been no Columbia crew to encounter the Caeliar. So by trying to create a timeline where the Federation didn't exist, the Borg should've really created one where they didn't exist either.
Ahh, but there is a way out. Time travellers themselves remain insulated from the changes in their own futures. In "Past Tense," Sisko, Bashir, and Dax continued to live in the 2020s even after their actions had changed the future so that the Federation never rose. In "Yesteryear," Spock continued to exist in the past even after the change that erased him from history, and thus could return to the altered future. And at least according to Crucible, McCoy lived on for decades in the 20th century after saving Edith Keeler and preventing the Federation from ever rising.
So by the same token, even though the Borg sphere's actions in that briefly glimpsed timeline (existing "after" they went back and shot up Cochrane's base but "before" the E-E went back to fix things) would've prevented the creation of the Borg in that timeline, the out-of-time Borg from that sphere would still have been around, insulated from the change, refugees from another history. So they could've restarted the Collective all over again in that timeline, with Earth as the first world they assimilated. Thus, we still get the result that the E-E crew glimpsed, the 24th-century Earth that's populated entirely by Borg.
Then, once the Borg in the past were defeated and Cochrane's flight went off as scheduled, history was restored to the path we know, and ironically defeating the Borg brought the whole Collective back into existence. Oopsie! (Not that anyone involved could've known, of course.)
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
Also, the Caeliar would still have performed their Great Work, and caused the destruction of Erigol. It's likely that some of them would have escaped, possibly through a destabilised subspace corridor, and the first Borg would just have been the alien mining cartel rather than the humans.
Also, the Caeliar would still have performed their Great Work, and caused the destruction of Erigol. It's likely that some of them would have escaped, possibly through a destabilised subspace corridor, and the first Borg would just have been the alien mining cartel rather than the humans.
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
Except there wouldn't have been the feedback through the Great Work that destroyed Erigol, because there would have been no Columbia MACOs to create unstable temporal corridors, which means that one Erigol city would not have gone back in time to the dawn of the universe in a distant galaxy to create the feedback that destroyed Erigol.
It's all very circular. Time travel gives me nosebleeds.
Except there wouldn't have been the feedback through the Great Work that destroyed Erigol, because there would have been no Columbia MACOs to create unstable temporal corridors, which means that one Erigol city would not have gone back in time to the dawn of the universe in a distant galaxy to create the feedback that destroyed Erigol.
It's all very circular. Time travel gives me nosebleeds.
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
^ LOL it sometimes gives me headaches too...
But, even though I think its impossible, when the contact with the malevolent "better" species went awry, the first thing I thought of was that they accidentally contacted the Borg... not sure why...
^ LOL it sometimes gives me headaches too...
But, even though I think its impossible, when the contact with the malevolent "better" species went awry, the first thing I thought of was that they accidentally contacted the Borg... not sure why...
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
Done... And made thread title slightly less obvious as to what destiny ends up being about.
Done... And made thread title slightly less obvious as to what destiny ends up being about.
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
However, I decided that whatever they had done in sending the feedback loop that destroyed Erigol had poisoned the Caeliar gestalt, and that was what would turn the Mantilis Caeliar into the Borg. In a way, it was like what Krona did in the DC Universe; he peered back to the dawn of time, then went further until he saw a hand grasping a galaxy, and in so doing unleashed evil into the present. That's what I thought. Not at all what Lost Souls did.
I'd worked out when I finished Gods of Night that the Mantilis survivors were going to become Borg. I was racking my brain trying to figure out who it was that contacted the malevolent species, and it never occurred to me that they were also Caeliar.
However, I decided that whatever they had done in sending the feedback loop that destroyed Erigol had poisoned the Caeliar gestalt, and that was what would turn the Mantilis Caeliar into the Borg. In a way, it was like what Krona did in the DC Universe; he peered back to the dawn of time, then went further until he saw a hand grasping a galaxy, and in so doing unleashed evil into the present. That's what I thought. Not at all what Lost Souls did.
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
Nice to be surprised...
Was the *catoms* thing started I figured the Borg and Caeliar had to be connected, and since the MACOs (who to me were out of line by leaps and bounds) I kinda figured something bad would happen to them eventually but in a way I was wrong about that too, technically... surprise and twists all around!
Nice to be surprised...
Was the *catoms* thing started I figured the Borg and Caeliar had to be connected, and since the MACOs (who to me were out of line by leaps and bounds) I kinda figured something bad would happen to them eventually but in a way I was wrong about that too, technically... surprise and twists all around!
Re: Wouldn't this have actually stopped the borg...
^ The last MACO, Pembleton, did get assimilated. It's just that Thayer and Greylock then ate him.
^ The last MACO, Pembleton, did get assimilated. It's just that Thayer and Greylock then ate him.
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