Wouldn't logic tell Spock volunteering Kirk in TUC was bad?

[JaxsBrokenHeart]

I always took it as Spock just not quite understanding the full extent of Kirk's enmity towards the Klingons especially when you see how surprised he is by Kirk's "Let them die" outburst. Could be due to his own logic or that Spock wasn't really himself to see the full extent of Kirk's likely grief/bitterness after David's death in the three months on Vulcan.

Really it could serve as foreshadowing of Spock's failure to recognize the true degree of Valeris' own fear and mistrust of the Klingons as well.

 

[Timo]

Did Spock choose to send Kirk to escort Gorkon?

In the briefing after Praxis, we learn that Klingons are in dire straits, and that Spock has been talking with Gorkon, and the result is the summit in which peace will be considered. Spock then says "We have volunteered" to send the escort for Gorkon, and adds that "I have personally vouched for you in this matter".

Clearly, the "we" doesn't mean "Spock & Gorkon". It means "Spock & unspecified Federation and/or Starfleet assets". And since Spock subsequently puts an emphasis on "I", it almost sounds as if the escort mission is something he wants to detach himself from, personally - it's somebody else's idea, and Spock may even think it is a bad idea. Either it's one he might moderate by recommending Kirk, or then sending Kirk is exactly what makes it bad, but he trusts his old friend will behave, and thus doesn't refuse the idea but goes along with it.

Is "we" supposed to be "Spock & Sarek"? Did daddy quote the old Vulcan proverb for his son? Or is it actually that Cartwright and his cabalists told Spock to arrange for the escort mission with the Nixon twist, so that they could ensure carnage would happen in the most plausible manner imaginable? And then asked Spock whether he would vouch for Kirk - so that when Spock said yes, he would be labeled co-traitor at Kirk's "assassination" of the Chancellor, regardless of whether Spock lived through it or not, and discredited in all further inquiries into the matter...

The very fact that Spock negotiates with Klingons establishes that he sees good in people, even when there is none. Cartwright might consider Spock the perfect tool for the conspiracy, then, making use of the Vulcan rather than merely sending his own men to deal with the Chancellor. Spock would not assume the worst of Cartwright, either...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[eyeresist]

Spock then says "We have volunteered" to send the escort for Gorkon, and adds that "I have personally vouched for you in this matter".

Clearly, the "we" doesn't mean "Spock & Gorkon". It means "Spock & unspecified Federation and/or Starfleet assets". And since Spock subsequently puts an emphasis on "I", it almost sounds as if the escort mission is something he wants to detach himself from, personally - it's somebody else's idea, and Spock may even think it is a bad idea.

I don't read it that way at all. Besides, if Spock thought the escort mission was a bad idea, he wouldn't be a patsy and say it's a good idea just to please the higher-ups.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I don't read it that way at all. Besides, if Spock thought the escort mission was a bad idea, he wouldn't be a patsy and say it's a good idea just to please the higher-ups.

Neither do I. I've always taken Spock's statements to mean that he volunteered the Enterprise crew for the mission, and that when Kirk's presence was questioned (due to his history with the Klingons), Spock vouched for his longtime friend and commanding officer--perhaps even going so far as to state that Kirk was the best man for the job because of his history with the Klingons, not in spite of it. Spock knew from experience that whatever misgivings Kirk may have had about the mission that duty would eventually win out.

Naysayers may point to the events of TSFS as evidence to the contrary, but it's important to remember that Kirk did nothing during the course of those events that harmed other Federation citizens or triggered a breach in Federation security. In fact, Kirk's decision to destroy the Enterprise rather than risk losing her to the Klingons was precisely what a commanding officer is supposed to do under those circumstances (and the reason I've always questioned his being charged with the vessel's destruction, as he was wrong only to take her out of spacedock without authorization, not to scuttle her to preserve the secrecy of the Genesis information).

--Sran

 

[golddragon71]

For me it always seemed as if Kirk's blinding hatred for the Klingons was a bit overplayed here. I mean I understood why he had a grudge against them. But even he tried to save Kruge on Genesis before kicking him off to keep the Klingon commander from pulling him to a shared death. Plus he easily could have killed Maltz but elected to spare him. (Although that could have been a fate worse than death to a Klingon in Kirk's interpretation) finally there's Star Trek V in the way of everything.
By the end of the movie Kirk's at a social with a number of Klingons.. True he's not buddy/buddy with them but at least he's reached a measure of respectful understanding with them. At the very least he no longer harbors the total hatred of them that he would have understandably held right after David's death.
However, Star Trek VI seems to completely sweep all this under a rug.
Korrd, who would have stood by Kirk after the Nimbus III affair, was nowhere to be seen in TUC. Kirk meanwhile, not only doesn't have any sympathy or trust for Klingons, he's adamantly opposed towards opening any kind of peace with them as if David's Death on Genesis occurred a few months earlier as opposed to...five or six years.

 

[eyeresist]

^ I agree about the inconsistency, but I think pulling TFF into the argument will rile some fans hereabouts.

 

[Timo]

I've always taken Spock's statements to mean that he volunteered the Enterprise crew for the mission

...But there doesn't appear to be an Enterprise crew. The officers have been scattered to the four winds, being surprised to find each other together again in that briefing.

It's unlikely Spock would argue "I want to send Chekov, Uhura, McCoy, Valeris, myself and Kirk to escort Gorkon in" and then have to defend the inclusion of Kirk, if nothing connected these people beyond their distant past as erstwhile Enterprise officers. More probably, he'd suggest sending either Kirk or the Enterprise for the symbolism (as some sort of a ship had to be sent anyway), and would then have to defend this choice with the Nixon thing; the other old-timers would be a side order.

By the end of the movie Kirk's at a social with a number of Klingons.. True he's not buddy/buddy with them but at least he's reached a measure of respectful understanding with them.

OTOH, this supports the idea that Kirk was famous in Klingon circles. If not prior to this incident, then at least thanks to this incident where he got associated with the supposedly (in)famous Korrd who makes a comeback of sorts here.

If Kirk only agrees to play nice to Korrd because the bastard saved his life, but deep in his heart still just wants to stab the lot of them to death, then the events of the penultimate ST5 scene still play out much the same way... It really isn't as if Kirk would be mingling with the Klingons or even deigning to share a drink (only Scotty and the diplomats try out that one). Heck, he doesn't as much as reward the Klingons with a glance!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

Spock would have volunteered the Enterprise. Who gets attached to Enterprise would depend on just what its function was by this point in time. The crew was suppose to stand down in six months. Meaning she was being retired and likely in active reserve or something along those lines. Perhaps she was acting as the training ship like her predecessor. This would have the crew living on Earth, yet still be attached to Enterprise.

If Captain Kirk, following TFF gets got one more Five Year Mission, it still have been over well before Praxis exploded. Sulu would have left during it to command Excelsior. However if instead Starfleet had gone to using Three Year Missions, like what Excelsior is just finishing, Enterprise could have had one or even two of those since TFF. They would have gotten back several months before Praxis exploded and would be preparing to deactivate Enterprise given the call for the crew to stand down and the launching of a new USS Enterprise within a year or so of that event. Enterprise might not need all that long to deactivate prior to the new ship's launch, so having her act as training cruiser for a year seems reasonable.

Seeing how the Federation Council handed Kirk this new Enterprise, it seems like he is permanently attached to her. No other captain is given the commanding officer's position of Enterprise as an assignment. Just Kirk. So wherever Enterprise is to go, Kirk will be on the bridge. So if Enterprise gets volunteered...Kirk's going regardless. Spock knows this, but he wants Enterprise to be used. There is no better symbolism that having Enterprise as the escort ship. Even if it isn't the original ship. The name is enough. Having Kirk there just keeps the ship from being targeted for being Enterprise...a name the Klingons know all too well. Since Archer's time.

 

[Timo]

There are several uncertainties there that will continue to puzzle us till the end of Trek...

Who exactly was going to stand down in six months? Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Scotty - the old geezers (none yet anywhere close to the 75 years established as retirement age in TAS "Counter-Clock Incident")? Or the whole bunch, including "young" Chekov? If the latter, it ought to be a matter of just disbanding the crew and sending these people to other assignments - it doesn't appear right that Chekov or Uhura should retire along with the elders. Or Spock, for that matter, being a long-lived Vulcan and all.

What exactly was Valeris going to continue doing when Spock stepped down? Being science officer to the Enterprise? Being commanding officer to the Enterprise, despite her low rank? Doing diplomacy with Klingons at the behest of Sarek? If one of the former, Spock must have been in the same belief as Kirk - that the ship would continue operating under a new crew for a few years at least.

Did Chekov or Scotty retire? In ST:GEN, everybody is still in uniform, but Kirk is assuredly and explicitly retired, so there's no telling.

If Captain Kirk, following TFF gets got one more Five Year Mission, it still have been over well before Praxis exploded. Sulu would have left during it to command Excelsior. However if instead Starfleet had gone to using Three Year Missions, like what Excelsior is just finishing, Enterprise could have had one or even two of those since TFF.

Amusingly, we have no evidence that anybody else would ever have conducted a "five year mission" but Kirk in TOS. And it's not as if this is even a valid a mission type in TOS, something our heroes know started on stardate X and will end on stardate Y: it seems our heroes simply keep on doing stuff both at the far frontier and at home waters, and end up doing five years of it before recalled for refitting of their ship or whatever. (It's in ST:ID that Kirk knows in advance that he will be spending exactly five years out there in unexplored space - something that did not happen in TOS.)

Quite possibly Starfleet just keeps all ships on "active reserve", sending them to whatever assignment is called for, and every once in a while recalls them for refit and total rotation of crew. At that point, it starts referring back to the active period as an "X-year mission" (at least in the intro to the popular holoshow based on the adventures), even though basically none of it was preplanned or otherwise what we would think a "mission" entails.

Seeing how the Federation Council handed Kirk this new Enterprise, it seems like he is permanently attached to her. No other captain is given the commanding officer's position of Enterprise as an assignment. Just Kirk. So wherever Enterprise is to go, Kirk will be on the bridge.

And, apparently, vice versa: when Kirk personally is needed to sort out the Nimbus III crisis, the dysfunctional Enterprise is sent with him. Was that, too, a case of Nixon in China - of Starfleet trying to intimidate the Klingons with a big-name hardliner, or, conversely, to placate the voters back home with a hardliner even though he actually had orders to behave?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[fonzob1]

"Only Nixon could go to China" means you send a hawk to meet the enemy, not a dove.

^This is what I was thinking when I saw the title of the topic. Also, he was the Captain and had to act as the diplomat to answer for what happened under his command.

 

[Gorn Captain]

"Only Nixon could go to China" means you send a hawk to meet the enemy, not a dove.

Pardon me, but as a history professor I can't resist the compulsion to fine tune this to be a bit more accurate.

The phrase meant that only Nixon could get away with going to China because of his fierce anti-Communist credentials. If Kennedy or Johnson had tried it, they would have been roasted alive as traitors by people like Richard Nixon.

It's not so much a tactic of sending a hawk as it is the hawk is the only one who can get away with the tactic.

Also, to the later poster, Nixon was a member of the House of Representatives and Joseph McCarthy was a U.S. Senator. Nixon was not an assistant to McCarthy. Although, ironically, Robert F. Kennedy was an assistant to McCarthy for a brief time.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Did Chekov or Scotty retire? In ST:GEN, everybody is still in uniform, but Kirk is assuredly and explicitly retired, so there's no telling.

Scotty was retired. That the three of them were in uniform means little, as even retired military may still done a uniform for special occasions.

--Sran

 

[eyeresist]

Amusingly, we have no evidence that anybody else would ever have conducted a "five year mission" but Kirk in TOS. And it's not as if this is even a valid a mission type in TOS, something our heroes know started on stardate X and will end on stardate Y: it seems our heroes simply keep on doing stuff both at the far frontier and at home waters, and end up doing five years of it before recalled for refitting of their ship or whatever. (It's in ST:ID that Kirk knows in advance that he will be spending exactly five years out there in unexplored space - something that did not happen in TOS.)

Are you saying that the introductory voiceover to every episode of TOS isn't canon?

 

[Cyke101]

Amusingly, we have no evidence that anybody else would ever have conducted a "five year mission" but Kirk in TOS. And it's not as if this is even a valid a mission type in TOS, something our heroes know started on stardate X and will end on stardate Y: it seems our heroes simply keep on doing stuff both at the far frontier and at home waters, and end up doing five years of it before recalled for refitting of their ship or whatever. (It's in ST:ID that Kirk knows in advance that he will be spending exactly five years out there in unexplored space - something that did not happen in TOS.)

Are you saying that the introductory voiceover to every episode of TOS isn't canon?

For some reason, your post gave me the idea that Kirk had to record the introductory voiceover before every mission, as if it was part of his daily To Do List.

 

[Timo]

The voiceover is a bit like the Captain's Logs: it's obviously dictated after the fact!

In some early episodes, Kirk makes it explicit that his dictations describe events that happened some time ago ("Unknown to any of us during this time, a duplicate of me, some strange alter ego, had been created by the transporter malfunction...").

Of course, in-universe, ENT would have us believe that Kirk's voice-over is merely quoting the historic words of Zephram Cochrane - words he wrote (or had somebody write for him) for a pompous unveiling ceremony. But who's Kirk's audience there?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[eyeresist]

But who's Kirk's audience there?

It's us!

 

[Nebusj]

But who's Kirk's audience there?

It's us!

Wait ... so ... Star Trek is just a TV show in the Star Trek universe? This changes everything!

 

[Ithekro]

Doctor Who is appearently also a TV show in its own universe. But they also have Star Trek (Star War, Harry Potter, and Lord of the Rings, among other things the Doctor references).

 

[BeatleJWOL]

But who's Kirk's audience there?

It's us!

Wait ... so ... Star Trek is just a TV show in the Star Trek universe? This changes everything!

According to the preface to the novelization for TMP, Kirk strongly implies that the adventures of the Enterprise are dramatizations of what actually happened.

So uh, not really, but kinda?