Would you support the Federation's expansionist policies?

[C.E. Evans]

Humans=the need to explore & push boundaries=Federation expansionism?

 

[Lord Garth]

I think the Federation should be able to travel around in unclaimed space. For claimed space, that's something for the Federation to work out with the locals.

If the Federation can get as many member worlds as it can, more power to them, but they have to figure out how to travel to all the different parts and how to get along with neighboring systems who aren't part of the Federation or a Federation territory.

My go-to example of how exploration and expansionism can go wrong:

Technically, the Dominion laid claim to space on the opposite side of the Wormhole, so that should've been the end of the Federation's exploration there, unless they worked out a treaty. The only thing that muddies the waters is that the Dominion should've let the Bajorans know they couldn't start the New Bajor colony from the beginning, before it was built. Technically, it was a Bajoran colony the Dominion attacked, not a Federation colony, so they were careful not to make a declaration of war against the Federation, but they knew they'd retaliate, as is what happened when the Odyssey was sent to rescue Sisko and company.

 

[Radu Molasar]

Maybe Starfleet has an equivalent of the French Foreign Legion.

That sounds more like these guys:
https://stexpanded.fandom.com/wiki/Nyberrite_Alliance

Their motto is probably like this:

“We do one thing—ship goods.
No politics—no fire-fights.
We are spacers pure and simple.”

Back to Earth types wouldn’t bother them a jot.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Hold on a sec.

Picard season 1uses those issues allegorically. The admiral we see in episode 1 season 1 tells Picard explicitly that the Federation and Starfleet had to think about the interests of the Federation first, when they left the Romulans to fend for themselves, since she believes they get to decide which species live and die. That’s the specific language used in the episode.

It is not crazy or coming out of left field to relate those subjects to what we have seen on-screen over the past 5 decades, since the show has touched on immigration, asylum seekers, and does it literally with present-day policy with season 2 showing Rios in a ICE lockup.

Therefore, given that Picard says “it was no longer Starfleet,” how do we not talk about why it was no longer Starfleet? Or the fact that the Federation went from a polity that welcomed everyone and was interested in expansion to a government that turned inward.

And all this post tries to do is talk about the positive and negatives about that, and whether the “classic” idea of Starfleet exploring and expanding outward is actually a “good” thing?

I agree with you PICARD was a very bad show. The allegory was out front and personal for the producers but we can easily ignore it and simply enjoy Season 3.

 

[Orphalesion]

It's like this, I'm an internationalist in real life, meaning I don't like the idea of states/nations being closed off and am a fan and supporter of international cooperation and free movement of persons and goods and ideas beyond borders (really if I had my way the concepts of a border or a nation state wouldn't exist any longer)
I do not expect everybody to agree with me, but that's my ideal.

So I will be perfectly honest...I love the way the Federation is portrayed in most of Star Trek. They do not force anybody to join, they even allow planets to leave as evidenced by Tasha's world. But overall they are this great, tolerant, collection of a huge amount of cultures and planets and species where the inhabitants seem to enjoy unprecedented personal and political freedom and opportunities. That's basically if somebody looked inside my head and created my ideal society.
So I very nothing much wrong with this supposed "expansionist policies"
They are just settling uninhabited planets, nothing wrong with that, and invite others to join. That's as benign as you can get. I fact they are sometimes even too passive an permissive, like allowing the Marquis planets to fall into Cardassian hands while also faling to repatriate the Federation citizens there. But it only shows how committed they are to the ideal of self-determination.

And while Miss Azetbur might claim the Federation to be a "Homo sapiens only Club"... It is the only large Empire in the Alpha/Beta quadrants that we see being populated by many species and cultures and see them represented in Starfleet. In contrast the only place in the Klingon Empire where we see many(any?) members of species that could be non-Klingon subjects of the empire is Rura Penthe...what does that tell us?
Sorry, I'm a Federation Fan.

 

[fireproof78]

And all this post tries to do is talk about the positive and negatives about that, and whether the “classic” idea of Starfleet exploring and expanding outward is actually a “good” thing?

Depends on the territory.

Season 1 presents a biased slant of Starfleet and expects a lot of the audience to agree with Picard. That seems to ignore the pressures the Federation would be under post Dominion War, and especially with upheaval after the fact. Then the Romulan coup, creating more instability. Finally the attack on Mars.

Picard might have a point that it wasn't Starfleet; but then that happened back at Wolf 359. They looked inward to protect themselves and then began looking outward again when faced with other political pressures.

Same with selecting people who live and die. Picard had done the same thing with other cultures per the Prime Directive. It only "wasn't Starfleet " when Picad disagreed. Same as in Insurrection.

 

[cal888]

That leads me to wonder whether the Federation has a more benign, but potentially dangerous philosophy akin to "Manifest Destiny."

"Wagon Train to the Stars" is baked into Star Trek's original premise, albeit balanced out with settling uninhabited planets plus the Prime Directive. I'd say it's fair game, especially with the 18/19th century British Navy aspect to Starfleet and galactic geopolitics being modeled around late 19th century Europe in the modern imperial age.

However, a problem with this seems to be that, whether reasonably or unreasonably, just because someone doesn't live there doesn't mean that it isn't claimed by some other culture.

Another major issue as well is what about all the pre-warp societies that might be warp capable in a few hundred years, but the closest uninhabited planets to their system have a few hundred humans cosplaying Scotland?

I thought one of the most interesting ideas asserted by Picard season 1 is the problem that sets off Picard's disillusionment with Starfleet is a policy shift. That the Federation and Starfleet pull inward, and when they cut the Romulans loose it's because the idea of expansion, taking on the responsibility of moving outward and involving itself in the cultures and problems of others, has become too much. So the Federation pulls back.

Season 1 executes it poorly, but asking what happens when a post-scarcity society is suddenly exposed to scarcity is an interesting question to explore.

I found that odd.

Why would there be a giant statue to Captain Rachel Garret and an enormous recruitment center on a non-Federation world? The United States doesn’t put recruitment facilities in El Salvador.

M'Talas seems to be inhabited by the descendents of several Federation member species that have fallen on hard times. In real life, Italy and Spain make it very easy for the descendents of citizens living in say Venezuela or Brazil to gain citizenship and move to Europe.

 

[Shawnster]

Federation expansionist policies...

DS9 "The Way of the Warrior"
QUARK: I want you to try something for me.
(He pours a glass of foamy brown stuff.)
QUARK: Take a sip of this.
GARAK: What is it?
QUARK: A human drink. It's called root beer.
GARAK: I don't know.
QUARK: Come on. Aren't you just a little bit curious?
(Garak sips)
QUARK: What do you think?
GARAK: It's vile.
QUARK: I know. It's so bubbly and cloying and happy.
GARAK: Just like the Federation.
QUARK: But you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you begin to like it.
GARAK: It's insidious.
QUARK: Just like the Federation.
GARAK: Do you think they'll be able to save us?
QUARK: I hope so.

The Federation is insidious in the way it convinces people to become members and citizens. The more outsiders are exposed to it, the more they want it. The happy and bubbly feeling can be deceiving.

DS9 "For the Cause"
But I'm beginning to see that you don't know me at all.
EDDINGTON [on monitor]: I know you. I was like you once, but then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, Captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed about the Maquis? We've never harmed you, and yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day they can take their rightful place on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways you're worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it.

The Federation assimilates people and cultures and societies in a way that is similar to the Borg.

Look at the way Federation policy pushed expansion into the Delta Quadrant after the Dominion told them basically to "stop trespassing". They kept sending ships. They kept establishing colonies. The Federation has barely explored the Alpha and Beta quadrants, but they had to go kick the Dominion hornets nest. Flip it around and think about a wormhole opening near or in the middle of the Alpha Quadrant and, suddenly, all these Romulan ships keep showing up and settling planets and establishing bases. The Federation would feel compelled to respond with force. The Dominion acted just as the Federation would act. The entire war was because of Federation expansionist policies.

TOS "A Taste of Armageddon"

KIRK: Nothing yet, Lieutenant?
UHURA: Nothing, Captain. Hailing frequencies are open.
(Ambassador Fox enters the Bridge from the turbolift.)
FOX: Have you received an answer to your message yet, Captain?
KIRK: Nothing yet, Ambassador. We're awaiting a reply. Today's the first time we've had any evidence they've picked up our signal.
UHURA: Captain, message coming in from Eminiar Seven. Sir, it's code seven-ten.
KIRK: Are you sure?
UHURA: Positive. It repeats over and over.
FOX: Is that supposed to mean something?
KIRK: Code seven-ten means under no circumstances are we to approach that planet. No circumstances what so ever.
FOX: You will disregard that signal, Captain.
KIRK: Mister Fox, it is their planet.
FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.
KIRK: By disregarding code seven-ten, you might well involve us in an interplanetary war.
FOX: I'm quite prepared to take that risk.
KIRK: You are. I'm thinking about this ship, my crew.
FOX: I have my orders, Captain, and now you have yours. You will proceed on course. Achieve orbit status and just leave the rest to me. You're well aware that my mission gives me the power of command. I now exercise it. You will proceed on course. That's a direct order.
(He leaves.)
SPOCK: In view of code seven-ten, Captain, may I suggest
KIRK: Yes, Mister Spock. This is the Captain. Condition Yellow Alert. Phaser crews stand by. Deflector shields up. We're going in. Peacefully, I hope. But peacefully or not, we're going in.

Captain's log, stardate 3192.5. Now in standard orbit around planet Eminiar Seven. My orders are clear. We must establish diplomatic relations at all cost. Preparing to beam down to planet surface.

To hell with Eminiar and their sovereign right to rule their own planet. The Federation wants a treaty port there and, by God, they will get their treaty port.

TOS "Arena"

KIRK [on viewscreen]: You butchered helpless human beings
GORN [OC]: We destroyed invaders, as I shall destroy you!
MCCOY: Can that be true? Was Cestus Three an intrusion on their space?
SPOCK: It may well be possible, Doctor. We know very little about that section of the galaxy.
MCCOY: Then we could be in the wrong.
SPOCK: Perhaps. That is something best decided by diplomats.
MCCOY: The Gorn simply might have been trying to protect themselves.
SPOCK: Yes.

The Federation didn't even look around to see if Cestus III was claimed by anyone. They didn't even thoroughly research the sector before establishing an outpost. They saw a planet they wanted and they took it. Again, to hell with anyone else that might have a claim to the planet.

 

[somebuddyX]

I dream of a galaxy walking under one banner, the flag of the United Federation of Planets.
Would you like to know more?

 

[Shawnster]

I dream of a galaxy walking under one banner, the flag of the United Federation of Planets.
Would you like to know more?

KRUGE: Oh yes, ...new cities, homes in the country, ...your woman at your side, children playing at your feet. And overhead, fluttering in the breeze, the flag of the Federation. Charming.

 

[Unicron]

My take on Federation expansion is that there are actually wide gulfs of space--perhaps spanning multiple sectors--that are actually not really part of the Federation at all despite being within its "borders." These regions contain independent worlds that owe no allegiance to the Federation whatsoever, but are nevertheless under its protection due to their geographical proximity. This almost forces the Federation to be larger than it truly is. The Federation may have technically spanned 8000 light-years at one point, but only because it had to go around these non-aligned regions perhaps.

This is pretty much how FASA handled it, with a much larger area of space considered Federation boundaries (500-600 worlds as of the TOS/TMP era), but with many of those planets being colonies, protectorates, and independent worlds that had not yet decided on at least an associate level of membership. The challenge of managing trade and political unity among such a region of space is certainly a large one, and many cultures have to strike a delicate balance between their personal values and the differences required by formal membership.

For example, as described by FASA, worlds that are at least associate level cannot maintain a formal, independent navy (as Starfleet will assume the responsibility for their protection), but are allowed to keep smaller, system-specific vessels as needed (not too unlike a coast guard). They also must accept Federation standards of weights and measures and the Federation credit for monetary purposes when trading with outside worlds, but can maintain their own economics at home. Many planets have a currency exchange where credits can be turned into local forms of money, if the credit by itself is not accepted.

It's also established that, with certain exceptions, Starfleet personnel operating on a planet or within its sovereign space are subject to local laws and regulations and are expected to behave appropriately. For example, some trade items might not be permitted on one world even though they might be legal on other member worlds.

 

[Dr. San Guinary]

KRUGE: Oh yes, ...new cities, homes in the country, ...your woman at your side, children playing at your feet. And overhead, fluttering in the breeze, the flag of the Federation. Charming.

Oh, the irony. A Klingon complaining about Federation expansion?

Edit: What @Orphalesion said. As long as it does so legally (which they do), the Federation has the right to expand. A culture that does not expand will die.

 

[mspence]

I think part of the problem is the attitude that they have a right to be out there. Of course that won't sit right with some people who are already there.

 

[Arpy]

I suppose it depends. As we've seen the Federation, it's by and large fine. The only people really taking issue with its expansion are themselves expansionist powers and others one should have a problem with. But, without bringing the specifics of real world politics into the discussion, I guess the question becomes are they really who they say they are? Are they as benign as all that? Certainly the back and forth between Kirk and Fox reminds one of history of trade between West and East.

In my head canon the UFP is that ideal society that one wouldn't have a problem with, but I do wish there were more about the complexities of between them and us. More of other interstellar powers somewhere in between. One of the great things about Dune is how pragmatic that universe is about economics––Game of Thrones too, though not to the same extent. Pompous empires and nuanced ideologies are swell but nothing really happens without resources or cash, and, indeed, that usually includes the afore-mentioned ideologies. Think those pretty warbirds are cheap? That the Cardies are as mean as they are because of some "chimeric strain on the subatomic level in the [Cardassian] stem cell"? That a Klingon accountant cares about dying in glorious combat? It's great to have the Federation being moneyless and benign and in it for the science and camaraderie...but it'd be nice to get other colors to paint with as well. If only to make the Federation pop even more.

 

[Citiprime]

I suppose it depends. As we've seen the Federation, it's by and large fine. The only people really taking issue with its expansion are themselves expansionist powers and others one should have a problem with. But, without bringing the specifics of real world politics into the discussion, I guess the question becomes are they really who they say they are? Are they as benign as all that? Certainly the back and forth between Kirk and Fox reminds one of history of trade between West and East.

In my head canon the UFP is that ideal society that one wouldn't have a problem with, but I do wish there were more about the complexities of between them and us. More of other interstellar powers somewhere in between.

One thing I've seen people debate a lot in the past is whether Michael Eddington's speech from DS9 about the Federation being an insidious version of the Borg which assimilates cultures, but in a voluntary way, has any truth to it. The most interesting part of Eddington's argument is that the Federation is basically a galactic empire that conquers cultures with kindness, and in those cases where the kindness doesn't work (e.g., the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc.), they may outwardly respect those culture's choice to go their own way, but secretly they only see it as a matter of time until they "take their rightful place on the Federation Council."

As I've gotten older, I could see the situation from TNG's "First Contact" (the episode, not the movie) being more and more true. If some alien version of the Federation made contact with Earth tomorrow, I think it would go about as well as it did in that story, if not worse. There would be people who would love the opportunities it would offer to become "part of the chorus" and expand our way of looking at the galaxy.

BUT ... I also think the other aspects of the episode would ABSOLUTELY happen. There would be vigorous opposition to the idea of first contact, with people who would worry about the effects to human cultures, and reject the idea on principles of sovereignty, conflicts with philosophical, economic and religious belief, and phrases like "human purity" and "a human future for humans" being thrown around to support an isolationist stance.

 

[Arpy]

One thing I've seen people debate a lot in the past is whether Michael Eddington's speech from DS9 about the Federation being an insidious version of the Borg which assimilates cultures, but in a voluntary way, has any truth to it. The most interesting part of Eddington's argument is that the Federation is basically a galactic empire that conquers cultures with kindness, and in those cases where the kindness doesn't work (e.g., the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc.), they may outwardly respect those culture's choice to go their own way, but secretly they only see it as a matter of time until they "take their rightful place on the Federation Council."

But…but…that doesn’t make sense. It’s framing something in a sinister light that isn’t. Oh no! They became equal members of a decent society got everything they ever wanted! What horror!

As I've gotten older, I could see the situation from TNG's "First Contact" (the episode, not the movie) being more and more true. If some alien version of the Federation made contact with Earth tomorrow, I think it would go about as well as it did in that story, if not worse. There would be people who would love the opportunities it would offer to become "part of the chorus" and expand our way of looking at the galaxy.

BUT ... I also think the other aspects of the episode would ABSOLUTELY happen. There would be vigorous opposition to the idea of first contact, with people who would worry about the effects to human cultures, and reject the idea on principles of sovereignty, conflicts with philosophical, economic and religious belief, and phrases like "human purity" and "a human future for humans" being thrown around to support an isolationist stance.

I agree and have thought about the Malcorians along those terms as I too have grown older.

…as we grow up we harden into the people we become. Some are still open to change (at least to some, anyway) and others not. We should feel for those who aren’t, but if those same people grew up in the Federation, they wouldn’t be unhappier.

 

[Citiprime]

But…but…that doesn’t make sense. It’s framing something in a sinister light that isn’t. Oh no! They became equal members of a decent society got everything they ever wanted! What horror!

In the commentary track for Serenity, Joss Whedon talks about the central theme of Firefly and the character of Malcom Reynolds is "the right to be wrong." One thing that's left ambiguous within the show is whether the "Independents" were better or worse than the "Alliance" in the overall scheme of everything, but from the characters' perspective it was the way of life they were willing to fight and die for and colors how they still live on the edges of a society they don't feel comfortable being absorbed into.

Take Puerto Rico for example. It's an American territory, and many analyses show that with full American statehood it would cause an influx of more US federal funding that would raise the standard of living across the island. However, there's a significant part of the Puerto Rican population that either opposes or is ambivalent about official statehood, and what that means for them on a cultural level and how it defines what it means to be Puerto Rican.

I don't if that's a right or wrong way to look at that sort of thing. But it does play into that idea of "the right to be wrong" that I could see happening, even to a society as idealized as the Federation. There would still be cultures who would value being the masters of their own identity over becoming part of a community where their identity is an aspect of a greater whole.

 

[kkt]

Eddington's got a lot of damn gall talking about how the Maquis "have never harmed" the Federation when he just finished stealing industrial replicators intended for another society that needs them desperately, and phasering Kira, his superior officer.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't if that's a right or wrong way to look at that sort of thing. But it does play into that idea of "the right to be wrong" that I could see happening, even to a society as idealized as the Federation. There would still be cultures who would value being the masters of their own identity over becoming part of a community where their identity is an aspect of a greater whole.

Agreed. People look at the Federation and say "Why wouldn't anyone want to join?" And my answer is, "They don't want to." And that should be enough. Even if their lives our "better" to them it might be a gilded cage that requires a loss of autonomy or identity in the process.

It doesn't have to make sense to the Federation.

 

[Dr. San Guinary]

I think part of the problem is the attitude that they have a right to be out there.

They DO have a right to be out there.

Of course that won't sit right with some people who are already there.

They'll get over it.

In the end, there's room for both. The Federation never forces worlds to join against their will. If a world doesn't want to be part of the Federation, there's no problem. Peaceful coeistence is always possible.

But the Federation has the right to make its case. It has every right to present the potential benefits of joining. Yes, it's bubbling and cloying and happy. But it's better than the alternative!

In the end, the Federation can't help it if it's so awesome.

Even if their lives our "better" to them it might be a gilded cage that requires a loss of autonomy or identity in the process.

But that's the thing. Federation membership DOESN'T require a loss of autonomy or identity.

Other than abiding by basic Federation law (one world government, no caste-based discrimination), individual member worlds are left to run their own local affairs pretty much however they want to. There is no loss of individual culture. It's win-win, really.

Like I said, the Federation can expand. It MUST expand. Any culture that cannot expand will die. The Federation expands legally, by presenting its case to potential member worlds, and it's up to them whether or not they join. I'm really not seeing why the Federation is supposed to be the bad guy here.