I stand corrected.
Would you have stopped watching VOY if...
- Thread starter DevilEyes
- Start date
I agree with you.
Now whether that was the ferocious love of a mother for a child or..
What's the dif?
The difference is that she has a vagina! Do you have any idea what one of those looks like on a woman over 40? Because I don't, but I imagine that it's so hideous it would cause me to projectile vomit. It is a horrible, horrible sight (maybe). There is no way I would be able to watch a scene with Janeway naked under a blanket, all I would be able to think about is her disgusting hoohoo. 
Before half this forum gangs up and kills me, I want to make it absolutely clear that I was being facetious.
I have nothing against the scene in question.Just because he didn't have the usual man parts doesn't mean he wasn't a cunning linguist.
Agh!!
I was at work when I read that line and I made a total ass of myself by laughing out loud.You're probably right, lol.
Kathryn is a resourceful girl. I'm sure she taught him everything he needed to know. 
GATH: Why are you so consumed with this desire to get home? I find it difficult to understand.
JANEWAY: Home is home. It’s where we belong.
GATH: Couldn’t you create a new home here, with us? Can you imagine a more delightful place to live, where you could pass your time extracting pleasure from every moment. I promise you, you and I have many such moments to explore.
JANEWAY: Yes, but for how long? I’ve seen how quickly you get tired of your pleasures. All that interests you is what’s new and unexplored. After a day or two it becomes commonplace.
GATH: Yes?
JANEWAY: We prefer permanence. The reward of relationships that endure and grow deeper with the passing of time.
JANEWAY: Home is home. It’s where we belong.
GATH: Couldn’t you create a new home here, with us? Can you imagine a more delightful place to live, where you could pass your time extracting pleasure from every moment. I promise you, you and I have many such moments to explore.
JANEWAY: Yes, but for how long? I’ve seen how quickly you get tired of your pleasures. All that interests you is what’s new and unexplored. After a day or two it becomes commonplace.
GATH: Yes?
JANEWAY: We prefer permanence. The reward of relationships that endure and grow deeper with the passing of time.
Roast Beef?What's the dif?
Unless you have a speculum it is pretty hard to actually see the vagina. But OH WAIT everyone has mysteriously forgotten what vagina actually means.
I can't wait for the day when we start calling people's butts their anus.
I can't wait for the day when we start calling people's butts their anus.
Can we move away from this line of talk, please?
I just think we've crossed a line.
Edited because I was being preachy. Sorry about that.
Edited because I was being preachy. Sorry about that.
Can I pick choice C) "All of the above"?
From "Counting in Time."
....Reaching her hand out to pick up a framed 2D image of Voyager’s bridge crew in its 6th year, she knew in fairness she couldn’t judge the Admiral’s actions. Sliding her hand over the images of Seven and Chakotay, she heard the older Admiral’s strident voice ring in her ears once more.
“Seven of Nine is going to die. Three years from now. She will be injured on an Away mission. She’ll make it back to Voyager and die in the arms of her husband, Chakotay.”
Kathryn felt the knife go into her heart just as keenly now as it did the first time the Admiral said those words. It still bothered Kathryn, 10 years later, that she was uncertain which hurt more; Seven’s death or Chakotay’s marriage to Seven. The older Admiral told Kathryn that after Seven’s death Chakotay survived the next 13 years on Voyager, dying soon after the ship returned to Earth. In her mind’s eye she could still see the Admiral’s face when the older woman told Kathryn about Chakotay.
“He’ll never be the same after Seven’s death, and neither will you.”
Kathryn could see more in the Admiral’s eyes than her words belied. The Admiral was never the same after either death.
My J/7 support must swing in the direction of losing Seven over Chakotay dieing of a broken heart (which actually seemed unlikely to me).
We never saw the years after that C/7 were together.
I can understand it.
Chakotay like Janeway was alone and most likely lonely.
Seven filled that void for him and he took for granted that she'd always be there. With her gone, he went back to loneliness which lead to depression thus dying of a broken heart.
Chakotay didn't really have many "friends" on Voyager anymore.
He didn't really get along w/ Tuvok, Tom or Neelix so well.
Be'Lanna hooked up with Tom.
Seska was a spy
He had a fondness of Harry
He was a little distant w/ the Maquis crew.
Janeway was putting him off.
So it seems his whole world became Seven.
Eh, I'll still go with: there's no evidence he died of a broken heart (and I agree with Adm Hawthorne that's unlikely). All they said is he was never the same again.
That's true of anyone who loses a spouse. Doesn't mean you don't live your life. Just means your life is different after the loss.
If we take into account the apocrypha of "Full Circle," though, I don't think it would be very far out to say that Chakotay could have died of a broken heart, though. I think his character could really could go either way. "Endgame" leaves out the details, of course, but it wouldn't have been entirely out of character for him, IMO.
Another thing we don't know is how Seven died. That could be a huge part of it.
Anyways, I'm with JR! Janeway was devastated by everything the Admiral told her, not any one single thing. The writers very obviously chose Chakotay, Tuvok, and Seven because they're the characters Janeway loves most. One of them suffering would be hard. All of them suffering + whoever else they lost on the way home = angst city.
Only if you assume all of us read it.
While I can empathize how he died of a broken heart, I've never read any of the novels. I'm not understanding the reference.
I think we are getting "stuck" on the "died of a broken heart" idea.
In my interpretation (and please recall,I picked "C" as my choice) Chakotay didn't die until many years AFTER Seven's death. and some number of years after his return to Earth. I see Chakotay's character more like a swan who "mates for life". When his partner dies, he's lost and never finds another. Janeway (silly silly woman!) chose to live apart from any intimate associations on Voyager. Chakotay didn't chose, kind of like Harry in "The Disease", and he never recovered from that emotional bond.
Sure, he "moved on", he went through the motions. He fought aliens, lead away missions, disciplined his crew... but he was lost again, like before his path crossed with Janeway's/Voyager's all those years before....
...a man who couldn't find peace, even with the help of his spirit guide. For years, he struggled with his discontent. But the only satisfaction he ever got came when he was in battle. This made him a hero among his tribe, but the warrior still longed for peace within himself...
Now, lets pretend Janeway has no longing to "replace" Seven in Chakotay's life (silly silly woman). Let's just pretend that she's in mourning over the death of (to me) her foster daughter.
She can't speak of it to Chakotay, formerly her best human friend, since his claim on misery supercedes her own. In fact, all she can do is sit back as Chakotay's days consist of simply getting through one shift at a time, over and over, more than 17,000 times.
Did he ever smile again? Did he ever let himself laugh again? Could he look at baby Miral and hold her in his arms without crying for everything he had lost? Would he ever find peace in his life again, before he finally and mercifully left it?
What other options did she have? Kathryn couldn't turn to her Vulcan best friend. Despite their closeness he was yet "just" a Vulcan, and though he could logically deduce how she must feel, he couldn't really console her. he couldn't offer absolution for being the one who most likely ordered Seven to go on the mission that took her life.
And as the years piled on, one after another, shift after shift, Chakotay's unrest got worse, and everyone knew it. As the years went on, Tuvok's mind overcame the effects of the Doc's treatment and he slowly lost more of his impressive faculties. Oh, in anyone less accomplished, they would have retired him long before they reached Earth. As he declined she had to take away more and more of his responsibilities. First weapons control, then internal security chief, then science officer, until he was just a living consultant in the Sickbay under constant guard by the one crewman who never slept.
If she had only taken Q up on his offer. They would have never freed Seven or Icheb, but at least Tuvok and Chakotay would be whole... and the guilt she carried every day would be lifted from her heart.
"Seven, you will lead the Away team." ,
and the trauma she put herself through twice a week when she visited StarFleet Medical...
"Logic dictates, you are NOT who you say you are."
would just be a nightmare that never occurred...
And the memory of a man that at one time could have been something more than a friend, that man would finally smile again.
If only.
If only.
Seven.
Chakotay.
Tuvok.
In my interpretation (and please recall,I picked "C" as my choice) Chakotay didn't die until many years AFTER Seven's death. and some number of years after his return to Earth. I see Chakotay's character more like a swan who "mates for life". When his partner dies, he's lost and never finds another. Janeway (silly silly woman!) chose to live apart from any intimate associations on Voyager. Chakotay didn't chose, kind of like Harry in "The Disease", and he never recovered from that emotional bond.
Sure, he "moved on", he went through the motions. He fought aliens, lead away missions, disciplined his crew... but he was lost again, like before his path crossed with Janeway's/Voyager's all those years before....
...a man who couldn't find peace, even with the help of his spirit guide. For years, he struggled with his discontent. But the only satisfaction he ever got came when he was in battle. This made him a hero among his tribe, but the warrior still longed for peace within himself...
Now, lets pretend Janeway has no longing to "replace" Seven in Chakotay's life (silly silly woman). Let's just pretend that she's in mourning over the death of (to me) her foster daughter.
She can't speak of it to Chakotay, formerly her best human friend, since his claim on misery supercedes her own. In fact, all she can do is sit back as Chakotay's days consist of simply getting through one shift at a time, over and over, more than 17,000 times.
Did he ever smile again? Did he ever let himself laugh again? Could he look at baby Miral and hold her in his arms without crying for everything he had lost? Would he ever find peace in his life again, before he finally and mercifully left it?
What other options did she have? Kathryn couldn't turn to her Vulcan best friend. Despite their closeness he was yet "just" a Vulcan, and though he could logically deduce how she must feel, he couldn't really console her. he couldn't offer absolution for being the one who most likely ordered Seven to go on the mission that took her life.
And as the years piled on, one after another, shift after shift, Chakotay's unrest got worse, and everyone knew it. As the years went on, Tuvok's mind overcame the effects of the Doc's treatment and he slowly lost more of his impressive faculties. Oh, in anyone less accomplished, they would have retired him long before they reached Earth. As he declined she had to take away more and more of his responsibilities. First weapons control, then internal security chief, then science officer, until he was just a living consultant in the Sickbay under constant guard by the one crewman who never slept.
If she had only taken Q up on his offer. They would have never freed Seven or Icheb, but at least Tuvok and Chakotay would be whole... and the guilt she carried every day would be lifted from her heart.
"Seven, you will lead the Away team." ,
and the trauma she put herself through twice a week when she visited StarFleet Medical...
"Logic dictates, you are NOT who you say you are."
would just be a nightmare that never occurred...
And the memory of a man that at one time could have been something more than a friend, that man would finally smile again.
If only.
If only.
Seven.
Chakotay.
Tuvok.
For more insight on how Kate viewed Kathryn in regards to sex, Martin Firrell has posted some snippets of an interview with Kate you may want to take a look at.
It can be found here.
It can be found here.
I dunno. Maybe I'm just a cold-hearted bitch, but I'm a widow (7 years, now) who has never remarried and has no desire to do so. I haven't had a partner since he died, and I've simply got no interest in finding one.
Does this mean I'm a pathetic creature going through the motions? No. I have a full and wonderful life. I simply prefer to be alone.
So maybe I mated for life but, I just can't relate to the idea that once a partner dies, the other is so bereft his or her life is over. It just doesn't mesh with the real-life widows and widowers I know.
Frankly, I find the explanations for "he was never the same again" to be so much romantic melodrama.
Does this mean I'm a pathetic creature going through the motions? No. I have a full and wonderful life. I simply prefer to be alone.
So maybe I mated for life but, I just can't relate to the idea that once a partner dies, the other is so bereft his or her life is over. It just doesn't mesh with the real-life widows and widowers I know.
Frankly, I find the explanations for "he was never the same again" to be so much romantic melodrama.
Similar threads
