Would you have stopped watching VOY if...

[DevilEyes]

...Janeway had been seen covered with a sheet in a post-coital scene with her lover in "Workforce", as was apparently originally planned?

This is a spinoff from this thread, which got a bit derailed somewhere at page 4.

So, apparently, some believe that this would have been hurtful to VOY's ratings and that this is why TPTB were scared of showing it. I'm really curious to learn how the fandom - at least the part that post here - feel about this? Would seeing Janeway's bare shoulders (which, BTW, they already had seen in her bathtub scene in "The Q and the Grey") or possibly a leg, have really made a bunch of people to scream out in agony and stop watching the show?

 

[teya]

...Janeway had been seen covered with a sheet in a post-coital scene with her lover in "Workforce", as was apparently originally planned?

This is a spinoff from this thread, which got a bit derailed somewhere at page 4.

So, apparently, some believe that this would have been hurtful to VOY's ratings and that this is why TPTB were scared of showing it. I'm really curious to learn how the fandom - at least the part that post here - feel about this? Would seeing Janeway's bare shoulders (which, BTW, they already had seen in her bathtub scene in "The Q and the Grey") or possibly a leg, have really made a bunch of people to scream out in agony and stop watching the show?

As a one-off, no it wouldn't have bothered me at all.


What I did not want to see was a long drawn-out plotline of Janeway and Chakotay pining for each other, then getting together, then having problems, then...


Don't get me wrong. A well-done series that explores people's relationships and how they grow and change (old example, recently released on DVD is "thirtysomething") is one of my favorite kinds of entertainment.


But that isn't Star Trek.

 

[DevilEyes]

...Janeway had been seen covered with a sheet in a post-coital scene with her lover in "Workforce", as was apparently originally planned?

This is a spinoff from this thread, which got a bit derailed somewhere at page 4.

So, apparently, some believe that this would have been hurtful to VOY's ratings and that this is why TPTB were scared of showing it. I'm really curious to learn how the fandom - at least the part that post here - feel about this? Would seeing Janeway's bare shoulders (which, BTW, they already had seen in her bathtub scene in "The Q and the Grey") or possibly a leg, have really made a bunch of people to scream out in agony and stop watching the show?

As a one-off, no it wouldn't have bothered me at all.


What I did not want to see was a long drawn-out plotline of Janeway and Chakotay pining for each other, then getting together, then having problems, then...


Don't get me wrong. A well-done series that explores people's relationships and how they grow and change (old example, recently released on DVD is "thirtysomething") is one of my favorite kinds of entertainment.


But that isn't Star Trek.

The conversation was specifically about a bedroom scene that was supposed to be in "Workforce" - I presume between Janeway and her lover in that episode, not any long-term romantic plots between her and Chakotay.

...um, yeah, so another thing, Seven in her catsuit isn't sex it's titillation because apparently that's all the "favored demographic" can handle - or so they thought at the time. Heck, they considered a bedroom scene for Janeway in "Workforce" but backed off for fear the "favored demographic" wouldn't be able to handle seeing a woman "of a certain age" having a post-coital conversation in bed while covered with a sheet. Oh no, she has to be fully clothed on a couch with a blanket on her for pete's sake.

...um, yeah, so another thing, Seven in her catsuit isn't sex it's titillation because apparently that's all the "favored demographic" can handle - or so they thought at the time. Heck, they considered a bedroom scene for Janeway in "Workforce" but backed off for fear the "favored demographic" wouldn't be able to handle seeing a woman "of a certain age" having a post-coital conversation in bed while covered with a sheet. Oh no, she has to be fully clothed on a couch with a blanket on her for pete's sake.

Eh, it's not like 40-something attractive women showing skin on TV is that rare. I'm not sure what "falls into the same demographics" mean, but I don't think it's about the chronological age of the actors as much as the intended image of the character and the kind of 'demographics' that TPTB think they'll appeal, as well as the kind of show it is and the network it is on. By the logic of actor's chronological age, Mary-Louise Parker on Weeds should not be having sex scenes all the time, since she is in her early 40s, similar age as Mulgrew was when she did VOY. As for Trek, Nana Visitor may have been relatively close in age to Kate Mulgrew (not exactly the same, as Visitor was 36 when DS9 premiered), but she played a younger, hotheaded and physical character. (Not to mention what her Mirror Universe character was like.) On the other hand, TPTB seemed to want to project a "maternal" image for Janeway, but that's not reason enough to be afraid of showing her sexuality. Perhaps a better example would be Gates McFadden, who played a mother of an almost-grown son, and was simulating orgasmic experiences on screen in TNG season 7 (when McFadden was 45). Heck, DS9 had 60-something Louise Fletcher in a post-coital scene (though clothed), same thing with 60-something Salome Jens. Rene Auberjonois (57 at the time) had a half-nude post-coital scene in season 5 "A Simple Investigation" (with a 42-year old actress, also half-nude). As for captains, Kirk, Picard and Archer all showed a lot of skin many times. Shatner had as much hinted onscreen sex as it was possible in the 1960s TV. Bakula certainly had plenty of bedroom scenes, though most of them were as Mirror Archer (and perhaps the rules are different for 'evil' people). I think that the reason we didn't see Sisko in a bedroom scene with Kasidy is more likely what froot said, TPTB think that watching people in regular relationships have sex is dull, as there is no tension. It's the same reason why we didn't see sex scenes between Tom and B'Elanna, or why there weren't any sex scenes between Helo and Athena on BSG after they got married, while everyone else was getting their fair share of onscreen action, including Saul Tigh, Ellen Tigh, Adama and Roslin, and even Cavil.

I don't believe that TPTB had an issue with the sexuality of all Trek captains,I think they had an issue with the sexuality of the captain who happened to be a woman. Kate Mulgrew's comments (from the video linked to on this forum a while ago) confirm that, and show that she contributed to this attitude as well, with her belief that Janeway could not be taken seriously as an authority figure if she was having flings or romances the way some of the male captains did, because, according to her, the double standard would kick in (quote: "what's good for the gander and is not good for the geese") and she didn't want her character to be known as, quote, "space whore". In other words, TPTB had a host of issues with presenting the sexuality a female Starfleet captain lead, since they seem to have been paying too much attention to sexist stereotypes about women. Maybe that's why they kept changing her hairstyles so often - they seem to have been unsure just how sexy they should try to make her. They wanted her to project a 'maternal' image, since that's supposedly the safest way to sell a female authority figure to the masses (especially the alleged 'target demographics' of young males), but they always seemed to be torn whether to make her "MILF" sexy or to give her a "schoolmarm" image. When it comes to her love life, the logic seemed to be that you have to show her interested in men just enough so people would know she is heterosexual, and to prevent her being called something like 'frigid' or 'cold fish', but that you can't sexualize her too much so she wouldn't be called a 'slut' or a 'bimbo'.

yes, the general male audience doesn't want to see and older woman being erotic. I don't wanna tune into a Trek that's a Harlequin Romance. Put a phaser in Janeway's hand and shoot something. Trek for all it's preaching of equality is still a boys club as is most sci-fi. Lousie Fletcher sleeping with DuKat was gross and was meant to be. There was nothing sexy about either one of them or that situation. Salome was an alien and isn't seen as a human 60 year old woman.

Yes, when Shatner & Frakes took their shirts off, millions of women world wide got tingly all over just like men do toward Seven of Nine. Are women fans screaming to get Shatner shirtless now? Yet it's supposed to be appealing to the audience to see Mulgrew in a sexual situation?

When Mulgrew has a body like Mary_Louise Parker does then yes, I'll watch her tied to the ceiling fan and getting her ass slapped on every turn. Mulgrew's body isn't anywhere near what Parker has so yeah, keep her covered from head to toe.

So to quote Will Smith in MIB II: "Old and Busted or Brand New Hottness?"

^ Eh, it's not like she was going to be buck naked. Lying in a bed covered in a sheet wouldn't show more than she already did when she was lying in a bathtub in 'The Q and the Grey'. Apparently, TPTB didn't think that that was "OMG LOLZ YUK GROSS" because of her body, so I don't see why they would suddenly think that about a post-coital scene.

yes, the general male audience doesn't want to see and older woman being erotic. I don't wanna tune into a Trek that's a Harlequin Romance.

But you have nothing against Harlequin romance if, say, Jeri Ryan is in it?

How does the age of actors relate to the genre of erotica/romance? Please enlighten me. How does an older actress in a sex scene equate 'Harlequin romance'?

I hate to point out the obvious, but the depiction of sex and/or romance on screen is what the directors, writers and producers decide it would be. If you want to shoot a Harlequin romance, you may shoot it and hire a couple of pretty 20 year olds to act it on screen. You may as well, if you want, hire a couple of 80 year olds and shoot scenes with them having rough sex on dining room desk in a retirement home, with the woman shouting "Ride me hard, cowboy". (I bet there's an independent / art house movie somewhere with a scene like that. I bet there's also a porn movie somewhere with the same kind of scene. )

Lousie Fletcher sleeping with DuKat was gross and was meant to be. There was nothing sexy about either one of them or that situation.

That's purely subjective, and you don't know and can't prove if it was "meant to be" unless you have a statement by the writers and director "We wanted it to be gross".

But that's beside the point, since the real question is, if the audience can't handle the idea of an older woman having a sex life, did the sky fall off, were the audiences rioting in front of Paramount studios, were there angry calls and mass protests?

None of this addresses the mostly still male audience of Trek wasn't interested in seeing Janeway in a bedroom scene. So dispite whatever small protest there is about it, the larger part of the fanbase didn't want it. I explained it very clearly when comparing Shatner now to Shatner during TOS and how very few are screaming for an old shirtless Kirk over young shirtless Kirk.

the reaction of Kai Winn sleeping with Gul Dukat can be proven by just polling the audience.

Sorry but it's just that simple.

 

[teya]

...Janeway had been seen covered with a sheet in a post-coital scene with her lover in "Workforce", as was apparently originally planned?

This is a spinoff from this thread, which got a bit derailed somewhere at page 4.

So, apparently, some believe that this would have been hurtful to VOY's ratings and that this is why TPTB were scared of showing it. I'm really curious to learn how the fandom - at least the part that post here - feel about this? Would seeing Janeway's bare shoulders (which, BTW, they already had seen in her bathtub scene in "The Q and the Grey") or possibly a leg, have really made a bunch of people to scream out in agony and stop watching the show?

As a one-off, no it wouldn't have bothered me at all.


What I did not want to see was a long drawn-out plotline of Janeway and Chakotay pining for each other, then getting together, then having problems, then...


Don't get me wrong. A well-done series that explores people's relationships and how they grow and change (old example, recently released on DVD is "thirtysomething") is one of my favorite kinds of entertainment.


But that isn't Star Trek.

The conversation was specifically about a bedroom scene that was supposed to be in "Workforce" - I presume between Janeway and her lover in that episode, not any long-term romantic plots between her and Chakotay.

And I answered your question.


But I will do so again, in case clarification is needed.


No, a one-off would not have bothered me.


Now, does anyone know *why* the scene was dropped, or is it simply assumption that TPTB were against putting a 40-something woman in bed? Could it have been because of time constraints--which is the most common reason a scene is cut in a television show?

 

[Rett Mikhal]

I'm really not understanding why this is a big deal... is it because it's against her character? As I recall she was brainwashed along with the entire crew.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It would have been absolutely lovely to see her obviously naked under the sheets with her lover. It would have added a lot of poignancy to that episode when she eventually wakes up. As it is her loss is not as fleshed out (heh) as it could have been.

 

[kimc]

Now, does anyone know *why* the scene was dropped, or is it simply assumption that TPTB were against putting a 40-something woman in bed? Could it have been because of time constraints--which is the most common reason a scene is cut in a television show?

I had heard the couch/blanket scene was the replacement for the bedroom scene. If that's the case a time constraint would not apply.

 

[Leathco]

It wouldn't bother my in the slightest. If Picard at his age can have his sex scenes so can janeway.

 

[teya]

Now, does anyone know *why* the scene was dropped, or is it simply assumption that TPTB were against putting a 40-something woman in bed? Could it have been because of time constraints--which is the most common reason a scene is cut in a television show?

I had heard the couch/blanket scene was the replacement for the bedroom scene. If that's the case a time constraint would not apply.

You heard. From where?

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

It would have been absolutely lovely to see her obviously naked under the sheets with her lover. It would have added a lot of poignancy to that episode when she eventually wakes up. As it is her loss is not as fleshed out (heh) as it could have been.

I agree with this completely. They were clearly have some sort of sexual relationship anyway. Why not show it? It would have made the emotional strain of leaving him behind that much harder.

 

[Praxius]

Wouldn't phase me any.... Kirk, Picard and Sisko all had their moments of being half naked or in bed with someone or something similar..... what's the dif?

 

[exodus]

I'm really not understanding why this is a big deal...

Obsessive compulsive maybe?

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I'm really not understanding why this is a big deal...

Obsessive compulsive maybe?

Hi. Have met? My name is Adm_Hawthorne.

 

[exodus]

The conversation was specifically about a bedroom scene that was supposed to be in "Workforce" - I presume between Janeway and her lover in that episode, not any long-term romantic plots between her and Chakotay.

Really?
I thought it was about age bias and the male vs. female demographic of how it's viewed business wise thought the eyes of the studios production staff.

 

[exodus]

I'm really not understanding why this is a big deal...

Obsessive compulsive maybe?

Hi. Have met? My name is Adm_Hawthorne.

You'd have to say it repeatedly to be Obsessive compulsive.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I've not actually seen the episode, but hypothetically, it sounds like a nice scene.

 

[Udat]

Actually seeing Janeway being human would have helped the show. Chickens all the writes!

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Within the first couple of episodes of season one, we know that's not what Janeway was going for. There's a captain's log voice over where she wonders if she needs to be "larger than life" for her crew.

I think that's were Kate went with the character.

Unfortunately, that meant not seeing a good bedroom scene.

 

[Udat]

^ But Kate should have fought harder for a bedroom scene.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

^ But Kate should have fought harder for a bedroom scene.

Yes, but instead she fought hard to not have one.

She, like the other mediaheads that were in charge, didn't believe the target demographic could handle her in bed with someone and still take her seriously as captain.



This, I think, is silly. But, what do I know?