I'm sure that would have had more impact. But I'm glad we didn't miss out on having Ezri.
Would you have liked to see Jadzia on season 7?
- Thread starter JesterFace
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Even if it was, her attitude was shit. She had a serious superiority complex and it was solely based on things that the other hosts did, not her own actions.
She knew full well what she was getting into with Worf. She knew that he was a very “orthodox” and traditional.
No, Siskp tells Dax that she should have expected the mistress of the house to demand deference, which is not the same as orthodoxy.
" The moment you decided to marry Worf, you knew that sooner or later you'd have to bow down and show her the respect that she's due. "
I don’t know if you understood my original point, her general attitude the whole episode was her annoyance with the orthodoxy of the whole process. The issues with her and Martok’s wife were just a part of it.
She was being a brat. She knew what she was getting into with Worf. If she didn’t want a traditional Klingon wedding she should have said no from the get go.
I totally agree with @TribbleFeeder, especially her thoughts on Ezri. I feel Ezri represents a lot of what I disliked about Deep Space Nine's later seasons, and I completely also feel she's like a character from one of those high school soap operas that were really popular. Her presence also really did diminish Jadzia's death, and another one of those "small universe syndromes", where of course she's assigned to Deep Space Nine, right? In my mind her episodes were just the worst, and I agree they needed to keep women main cast members, but they easily could've been assigned another science officer who's a woman and maybe would've been interesting.
I'm not sure really what Bad Thoughts is arguing with TribbleFeeder about, she makes perfect sense to me and really seems to understand better what happened in that episode. I never cared much for You're Cordially Invited, I feel it's one of those things that was totally made up because they wanted some big wedding episode, but I don't feel it at all fits with Klingons, you remember when Worf and K'ehleyr basically got married in The Emissary by saying an oath? I just don't picture in my mind at all Klingons having some weird strict ceremony like that, I feel it might've been more interesting to do it the other way, and have Jadzia struggling against some weird Trill traditions her family's trying to push on her.
But I understand for Worf's character he'd think he wants to do everything as strictly as possible, and Jadzia was frustrated with his attitudes, TribbleFeeder is right it was totally more than just Martok's wife, she's annoyed with his stubbornness, and he's bothered by what he feels is her complete irreverence to everything. I never really felt Worf and Jadzia should've gotten married, in my opinion I feel she's with him because she's always had a bit of a Klingon fetish, and I had a difficult time getting around that, you know?
But oh dear, back to original topic, lol. Yes I totally would've preferred to see Jadzia stay on board, I feel she could've added something very interesting to their final season, even though she hadn't been used well for years, I still think she's ten times better than Ezri, and we wouldn't have had those horrible family stories for her. And Worf didn't need another wife murdered either, like TribbleFeeder said earlier.
I'm not sure really what Bad Thoughts is arguing with TribbleFeeder about, she makes perfect sense to me and really seems to understand better what happened in that episode. I never cared much for You're Cordially Invited, I feel it's one of those things that was totally made up because they wanted some big wedding episode, but I don't feel it at all fits with Klingons, you remember when Worf and K'ehleyr basically got married in The Emissary by saying an oath? I just don't picture in my mind at all Klingons having some weird strict ceremony like that, I feel it might've been more interesting to do it the other way, and have Jadzia struggling against some weird Trill traditions her family's trying to push on her.
But I understand for Worf's character he'd think he wants to do everything as strictly as possible, and Jadzia was frustrated with his attitudes, TribbleFeeder is right it was totally more than just Martok's wife, she's annoyed with his stubbornness, and he's bothered by what he feels is her complete irreverence to everything. I never really felt Worf and Jadzia should've gotten married, in my opinion I feel she's with him because she's always had a bit of a Klingon fetish, and I had a difficult time getting around that, you know?
But oh dear, back to original topic, lol. Yes I totally would've preferred to see Jadzia stay on board, I feel she could've added something very interesting to their final season, even though she hadn't been used well for years, I still think she's ten times better than Ezri, and we wouldn't have had those horrible family stories for her. And Worf didn't need another wife murdered either, like TribbleFeeder said earlier.
Arguing is far too strong. However, you seem to need to be set straight. TribbleFeeder says above that Dax should have anticipated the demands of Klingon culture. I replied that it was the level of culture--its orthodoxy--over which the two were having a power struggle. Though it is not always strongly stated, there is a variety of Klingon experiences, not a singular culture or singular adherence to a culture. It is represented im the Grilka episodes, in Worfs interactions in WOTW, in Soldiers of the Empire, etc. Indeed, Martok, reputedly the most ideally Klingon of Klingons, fits neither the demands of nobility set forth by his wife NOR of chivalry demanded by Kor. Orthodoxy may be an issue for some Klingons, but it by no means can be assumed that all Klingons are orthodox. Even Worf is uncertain how orthodox Sirella was. He may have raised a question about the authenticity of the candles, but he was also present at the ceremony, for which Sirella rightfully and sternly chastised him. Later he was surprised to learn how Sirella begrudgingly allowed him into the house, which she saw as a breach of her authority. Even Worf, Mr. Traditional Klingon Wedding, does not measure up.
BTW, who was at fault for not setting Dax straight on what kind of woman Sirella was: Worf or Martok?
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Thanks @Marynator , and I think you make a really good point there. They shouldn’t have gotte. Married and they never really made a good case of why they got together in the first place other than that she was into the Klingon thing. Or really any non human.
We don’t even see Worf’s interest in her, he never expressed it IIRC.
@Bad Thoughts I see what you’re saying about Sirella being overly orthodox, but I still stand by the point that Jadzia should have anticipated this.
I think Mary made a good point when she said it was pretty much just a big wedding episode. They needed a plot and it seemed like this one was haphazardly thrown together. Jadzia didn’t have gripes with Worf’s rigid Klingon-ness in the past, in fact it’s arguably one of the reasons she was attracted to him.
I think ultimately it’s just hard for me to see any good in her as a character here. She was really arrogant and snotty in this episode and her comments about negotiating the Khitomer accord were so frustrating. She talks about Worf in a very dickish way, just because he wasn’t married five times like her! Come on, Dax..
We don’t even see Worf’s interest in her, he never expressed it IIRC.
@Bad Thoughts I see what you’re saying about Sirella being overly orthodox, but I still stand by the point that Jadzia should have anticipated this.
I think Mary made a good point when she said it was pretty much just a big wedding episode. They needed a plot and it seemed like this one was haphazardly thrown together. Jadzia didn’t have gripes with Worf’s rigid Klingon-ness in the past, in fact it’s arguably one of the reasons she was attracted to him.
I think ultimately it’s just hard for me to see any good in her as a character here. She was really arrogant and snotty in this episode and her comments about negotiating the Khitomer accord were so frustrating. She talks about Worf in a very dickish way, just because he wasn’t married five times like her! Come on, Dax..
I actually think Worf and Jadzia made a cute couple. Jadzia was undoubtedly not the type that Worf expected to marry - and for that reason, she was the perfect mate for him, because they were so different. Just like Martok and Sirella!
Worf, being the traditionally minded Klingon that he was, would have been miserable if he'd married another Klingon who was just like that. He goes best with women who AREN'T like him, such as Jadzia and even K'Ehleyr.
Worf, being the traditionally minded Klingon that he was, would have been miserable if he'd married another Klingon who was just like that. He goes best with women who AREN'T like him, such as Jadzia and even K'Ehleyr.
I'm not sure what you mean by "setting her straight", I mean she's capable of figuring things out on her own, like @TribbleFeeder says, she knows Klingon culture and she knows Worf, so she should've known he'd want to be really strict about everything. I feel like it's as though she has an idea in her mind what she wants, and she ignored Worf's personality or something, so I feel I understood what TF's saying in her posts.
@Mr. Laser Beam I totally agree with you, Worf needs someone different than him, I always felt K'ehleyr was perfect for him and I loved his relationship with her, I loved her no-nonsense approach to Klingon culture, but she passionately respected Worf in spite of everything, and she made him accept her on her terms, which I always admired about her. And I loved her strength, she wasn't intimidated by either Gowron nor Duras, plus she was just brilliantly acted.
@Mr. Laser Beam I totally agree with you, Worf needs someone different than him, I always felt K'ehleyr was perfect for him and I loved his relationship with her, I loved her no-nonsense approach to Klingon culture, but she passionately respected Worf in spite of everything, and she made him accept her on her terms, which I always admired about her. And I loved her strength, she wasn't intimidated by either Gowron nor Duras, plus she was just brilliantly acted.
Since you made it seem as if I made no reference to the episode in question, you needed to be shown what elements of the episode and the series I am drawing from. Clearly what Worf asked of Jadzia was different from what Sirella asked of Jadzia. He wanted tradition. She wanted orthodoxy. He wanted to enjoy the forms of a Klingon wedding as he imagined them. She wanted Jadzia to effectively convert. Because Worf wanted tradition did not mean he wanted orthodoxy. They are not one in the same. And if Worf, or Martok for that matter, had any notion of what Sirella would have demanded of Jadzia, it was negligent not to inform her. It's not like they didn't talk about the wedding--Martok complained that they did it all the time.
BTW, Worf is in charge of the wedding. She turned over the details to him. He knew she was indifferent to the form it took. She wanted to marry Worf, not join the House of Martok. These are the facts.
These are your opinions.
They are things that happen in the episodes.
Let me ask this more broadly: how should one treat a prejudicial racist, even in one's family. Martok admits that Sirella is opposed to the marriage a priori on grounds of race, and it is at least suggested the she is using the premarital rituals to scuttle the union. What does one do? Should Jadzia simply "know her place", accepting that the patriarchal society would probably take her agency. Should she confront that prejudice? At what level must she accept Sirella's racism?
This discussion makes me want watch "You Are Cordially Invited..." with a more analytical eye. I remember it being such a dopey episode; the promo had Jadzia hollering "The party is just getting started!" while Bashir and O'brien had to suffer some crazy Klingon self abasement ritual.
From what I remember Jadzia doesn't give Martok's wife the proper respect, she acts flippant about it, and angers Worf, then has a fit, and has to be given a "time to be a big girl" pep talk by Sisko.
From what I remember Jadzia doesn't give Martok's wife the proper respect, she acts flippant about it, and angers Worf, then has a fit, and has to be given a "time to be a big girl" pep talk by Sisko.
That’s pretty much what I got out of it too.
Sisko, best dad in Star Trek. He even had to father Jadzia.
I mean, to be sure, until the end of the episode Sirella's a bit of a crone too.
It never was clear to me how much Jadzia should have been expecting what she got, and how much blame may fall to Worf or Martok for potentially withholding information.
I somewhat agree with Bad Thoughts, though, that while Worf certainly came across as "very Klingon", Sirella seemed to catch even him off-guard.
Being Jewish in ethnicity even if not really actively-practicing, I can certainly understand the dangers of painting a culture with a monolithic brush.
It never was clear to me how much Jadzia should have been expecting what she got, and how much blame may fall to Worf or Martok for potentially withholding information.
I somewhat agree with Bad Thoughts, though, that while Worf certainly came across as "very Klingon", Sirella seemed to catch even him off-guard.
Being Jewish in ethnicity even if not really actively-practicing, I can certainly understand the dangers of painting a culture with a monolithic brush.
Yes, that's about it. How much respect is proper is a matter of opinion, I suppose. Sirella didn't think so, and she wasn't just being difficult on purpose.
I thought the Klingon wedding wasn't nearly alien enough. It wasn't just an Earth wedding, it was a European-American wedding, except substituting an endurance ritual for the bachelor party and different costumes.
