Would T'Pol have taken Trip's Katra?

[Guy Gardener]

She had a few opportunities. In Simulitude, Tucker was at deaths door for quite a while that she, not that the girl was totally drawn to him as yet, had the opportunity. I suppose in Observer effect trying to get his Katra before he died only would have killed her since the infection was just that infectious. Although if she had and the Organians hadn't put it back where it belonged after winding back everyones memories... That would have been mighty confusing.

Which just leaves These are the Voyages when Charles did actually die that she could have taken his soul into herself for safe keeping...

But would she or could she have done this? And if so where would she have put his Katra? Oh god no, not that cloned corpse of Mayweathers from Deadstop?

 

[Pensive]

Did she even really believe in katras? Archer gave her melding advice but somehow I think she managed to maintain her Vulcan skepticism about such matters....

 

[Guy Gardener]

During the middle of season 4 it was complained at least once, that she had become a shut-in during her off time doing nothing except reading and rereading the Kir'shara... Like a fangirl with her pony Manga.

Archer is not Surak, and T'Pol can tell the difference. That must score at least a 9.8 on the wierd-shit-o-meter?

She might not have been able to do it, but she could have tried, and considering she already had a telepathic connection with tucker, it's possible she could have done it without physical contact which might mean she could have collected his katra in Observer Effect with out killing herself.

 

[Pensive]

I remember that exchange:
T'POL: I'll be reading the Kir'Shara 24/7, so no time for sex.
TRIP: I understand. Let me know if Surak wrote any kind o' Vulcan-kama-sutra positions in there


Hell, just get T'Pol to collect Trip's katra and hold it til Phlox can clone another Sim/Trip (this time tell him to use that research and keep the damn thing alive this time)

 

[Alyssa]

I thought that Katra's where something only Vulcans had. We have seen that the Vulcan Katra can be passed to a human but can a human give theirs to a Vulcan? Even if he could, we saw from ST3 that bones was affected by Spocks mind in his so T'Pol would have to cope with an emotionally unrestrained human mind in her head and it could have drove her insane, and that is assuming that the proccess of inserting a notoriously irrational human mind into hers wouldn't have killed her.

By the way don't you have to be a highly trained Vulcan melder priest or something to actually take a Katra OUT of a person.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Oh, for all the mysticism, it's just copying computer files. The brain is of course a computer... But Picard carried a bit of Sarek(Who got a enough of Picard's "essence" in him to subside his madness.) in him, and was able to share/display that with Spock via another meld. Just like Surak was shuffled between a few people during season 4. So if there isn't some energy field soul glowing aura body hopping between these people then it's just telepathic radio moving zeros and ones. Really you have to ask if instead of "cutting and pasting", as we have mostly seen, that they can't "copy and paste" so as that Katra's become mass produced?

As for T'pol's proficiency? Apart from her research, who knows how much of T'pau rubbed off on her during the meld that cured of of space herpes? But of course I agree this is all highly unlikely... If she wasn't desperately in love.

O, and then there was Elizabeth?

As far as trip driving her insane? He was already in her brain driving her to drugs. How much worse could it have gotten.

You do realize that if this scenario played out it would be the reverse of Six and Baltars relationship, that it would be her constantly doing it with the invisible man living in her mind?

 

[commodore64]

Trip doesn't have a katra, but I think after Archer's experience she thinks Vulcans do.

 

[T'Parm]

so humans don't have Souls? because that is what a Katra is.

 

[Zane Gray]

Yeah, it seems to me you could make a pretty compelling argument that Vulcan katras and Human souls are pretty much just different terms for the same thing.

 

[commodore64]

I think there are definitely parallels, but not quite the same. A Vulcan katra can be captured and removed b/c - presumably - they have telepathy. Human souls are unique and cannot be captured.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well la de dah!

I cite TNG The Schizoid Man. The human consciousness can be mapped charted and transferred into a machine and possibly a person after that. I cite TOS Turnabout Intruder. Human beings can totally have their personalities ripped out of one body and stuck in another, unless Kirks soul was still powering Lester's foreign personality and vice versus that Lester's soul was powering Kirks foreign personality. I cite Voy Tuvix. Souls and personalities can be smashed together into a single amalgam... Oh? Neither of them were human. Sorry. I cite TNG Second Chances. Does Tom Riker have a Soul or was Will Riker's Soul ripped in half to supply 1/2 souls to both these "people" the same as for goes with Kirk in TOS The Enemy Within? I cite Voy Flashback. Janeway was pulled into Tuvoks head and things went so horribly wrong inside his head that she could have died in there.

It's just telepathy and a pretend religion to control the moral use of that telepathy inside a fictional story. Human souls are better than Vulcan souls? That sort of talk sounds like the Christianity of old which said black people don't have souls.

Of course I'm now wondering why Savvik didn't take David's SOUL and stick it inside Spock's empty body she'd been shagging to keep alive on the Genesis Planet... Not to different from sticking Luke inside a taun taun... But then supposedly she was half Romulan. But who are you going to beleive?

Jerry Seinfield thought he had a Katra in one of his shows about nothing. Who has the balls to say that Jerry Seinfeld doesn't have a soul?

 

[Captain X]

Maybe the katra can only be given and not taken? The only instance that isn't the case is Archer at the end of the Vulcan arc, but then Archer didn't suffer the same debilitating effects that McCoy did either, so take that one as you will.

 

[commodore64]

Of course I'm now wondering why Savvik didn't take David's SOUL and stick it inside Spock's empty body she'd been shagging to keep alive on the Genesis Planet...

Exactly. Sorry, folks -- the human soul does not equal a katra.

Hey, one cool thing -- the remnants of those who have experienced someone's katra live with the katra, so presumably a sliver of Archer is in The Great Hall where people seek Surak's enlightment ... they get a little of the human. Cool.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Difference between McCoy and Archer is that McCoy had a personality, and OH what a personality he had! So while McCoy resisted the integration process, Archer was mellow enough not to notice his identity being drowned like an unwanted kitten.

Archer didn't go insane. He became calm and focussed and smarter. He talked about how centred he was and how he had information at his finger tips which he shouldn't have had.

We talk about Spock being Half Vulcan but do we really expect less of him for suppressing his Vulcan emotions + Human emotions? Who had the more volitile katra? The hybrid test driving the process or the first guy to perfect the process who was born no different from a Romulan who'd been a disembodied soul transferring between many consciousnesses for the last two thousand years?

Guzzling down Spock or Surek, would be like comparing orange Jiuce to antifreeze which would both surely be having completely different effects on a persons constitution as they're trying to hold this stuff down?

Please note.

Spock gave McCoy his katra, and then he stood up and saved Enterprise by fiddling with the engine AND THEN had that infamous little talk with Kirk "I am and always have been your friend." all the long while HE HAD NO SOUL! No Katra... Surely if those 16 grams that go missing upon death is a soul and no one can live without a soul... Exactly what sort of Xombie was Spock in his final scene during The Wrath of Khan was he supposed to be that Spock was at his most human when he was already dispossessed of his spark and divine essence?

Or he just sent McCoy a "Copy" of his personality.

Since Spock is half human, does he have a soul, a katra or So-tra? And since he has half a human soul, does that make him half real? Does that also mean that when he "headmailed" his "marbles" to McCoy that none of his human soul of what ever percentage he was allowed by god to have that he did not transfer over that information into the crotchety Doctor?

So Spock just headmailed a zip file of his electroencephalograms or some such pseudomedical gobblygook onto a new server. His actual Katra/soul went to Vulcan heaven like it was supposed to and... I was Thinking of Ralph Oppenhiemer C.E.O, the soccer mom and the honkytonk man... From TNG The Neutral Zone, they all died. Their souls went to heaven. Okay, Ralph's went to hell, but when Beverly revived them, did their souls come back from heaven or did they grow new souls or do they walk and talk and live "Lives" soullessly? ...Or did their souls wait in those frozen bodies for 400 years on the off chance their might be a little more "life" in store for them?

 

[Alyssa]

Captain X said:
Maybe the katra can only be given and not taken? The only instance that isn't the case is Archer at the end of the Vulcan arc, but then Archer didn't suffer the same debilitating effects that McCoy did either, so take that one as you will.

Also in that ENT ep Archer is more than willing to remove the Katra so maybe all the Vulcan had to do was open his mind and let Archer give him the Katra. So it wouldn't really have been taken but given

 

[Guy Gardener]

Ah, but the Katra had a sayso in the matter as well.

 

[pookha]

commodore64 said:
I think there are definitely parallels, but not quite the same. A Vulcan katra can be captured and removed b/c - presumably - they have telepathy. Human souls are unique and cannot be captured.

actually the soul has to be able to be transferred or people are soul less once they go through a transporter.

to me the ability to carry a katra maybe signifies that the soul and katra are more similar then they are different.

and yeah we have seen people transferred into other things so that it appears the essence of the person is transferred
within trek mythology.

look at turn about intruder for instance.
not just memories but the essence of kirk got transferred.
we see it in return to tomorrow in the episode with sargon and his people.

so yes i would say that trek mythology accepts that the essence, soul of a person can be transferred around.

we just dont know for sure if a vulcan can capture the katra but the possibility does seem to exist.

ps the whole concept of a human carrying the katra could have come from return to tomorrow when christine carried the consciousness of spock.

 

[commodore64]

The Difference between McCoy and Archer is that McCoy had a personality, and OH what a personality he had! So while McCoy resisted the integration process, Archer was mellow enough not to notice his identity being drowned like an unwanted kitten.

You know, I was never a huge Bones fan. I thought he was annoying in many episodes (like Galileo 7, Tholian Web, etc.). I don't hate him, just am not in favor of him.

Archer had some depth, which I personally appreciate. I thought he had a great personality -- sometimes moody, sometimes dark and nearly always thinking about obligation.

actually the soul has to be able to be transferred or people are soul less once they go through a transporter.

Don't you mean katra? Still not a 1:1 relationship.

to me the ability to carry a katra maybe signifies that the soul and katra are more similar then they are different.

They are similiar. No disputing that. However, they are not the same.

and yeah we have seen people transferred into other things so that it appears the essence of the person is transferred
within trek mythology.

look at turn about intruder for instance.
not just memories but the essence of kirk got transferred.
we see it in return to tomorrow in the episode with sargon and his people.

Ah, but humans don't control that. A "weapon" did.

we just dont know for sure if a vulcan can capture the katra but the possibility does seem to exist.

You mean human katra? It has never happened where a Vulcan has captured one.

ps the whole concept of a human carrying the katra could have come from return to tomorrow when christine carried the consciousness of spock.

But, Sargon helped hatch this plan and made it happen. And Spock never took Christine's soul. That is what we are disputing.

 

[JiNX-01]

Captain X said:
Maybe the katra can only be given and not taken? The only instance that isn't the case is Archer at the end of the Vulcan arc, but then Archer didn't suffer the same debilitating effects that McCoy did either, so take that one as you will.

Actually, I think McCoy had a bad reaction to Spock's katra because he didn't "remember." Spock wanted McCoy to take his katra and his body home -- to Mount Selaya.

So the katra decided if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.


As for the question of whether a katra is the Vulcan equivalent of the soul, I would say they're the same. My own belief is that our souls are the sum of all we are. If we've lived good life (not a perfect one, but a good one), when we die, our souls add to the good in the universe. If we embrace evil...

I can't think of any compelling reason why -- in light of the many instances cited above from the Trekverse -- T'Pol couldn't have at least tried to take Trip's "katra/soul."

Of course all this speculation is predicated on the ridiculous idea that the writers would have remembered Trip and T'Pol had a thing going a while back (and couple of children to show for it) and arranged for someone to summon T'Pol to Trip's side.

 

[Nebusj]

JiNX-01 said:
Actually, I think McCoy had a bad reaction to Spock's katra because he didn't "remember." Spock wanted McCoy to take his katra and his body home -- to Mount Selaya.

Am I just interpolating stuff from The Wrath of Khan and perhaps novelizations, or wasn't there a line about McCoy being a bit allergic to the effects of Spock's mind meld? I know Kirk says McCoy suffered from the mind meld, at least.

But it wouldn't necessarily have been easy anyway: after Sarek sees the security camera footage he concludes Spock and McCoy are one alive, one not, yet both in pain. Perhaps katras are just rather burdensome.