Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing story?

[Jon1701]

Its generally accepted that Treks II through IV are a trilogy of sorts, and although it was never planned as such this continuing story was very much to the benefit of the franchise. Although The Final Frontier had its own story, it cleary took place directly after The Voyage Home. The Motion Picture and The Undiscovered Country are perhaps not tied in as tightly, but they are still part of the journey for these characters.

One of the main problems with the TNG movies is that none of them really impact the other (with the exception of the destruction of the Enterprise). They are basically 4 different stories featuring the TNG cast. I cant help thinking they could have been better had the stories linked a little better.

Generally speaking, sequels usually follow on from the previous movies, but the TNG movies seem to follow on from the episodic nature of the TV series. It seems...I dunno, they just didnt take enough chances. I think they were also hampered by DS9 and VOY taking place in the background. The Trek Universe was continuing, and it seems there was a fear to tell stories that were outside of the chronology. The also had to shoe-horn in Worf as well.

I think it would have been much better to start Insurrection (if thats what the title would have been) right after the events of First Contact. The same goes for Nemesis. I think both of these movies would have turned out very different had this been the case.

Would this have been for the better? Would it make no difference?

Thoughts?

 

[Orac]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

The relationship between Riker and Troi was ressurected in Insurrection then continued in Nemesis, this is the only storyline I can really think of that links the films though.

 

[Argus Skyhawk]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

Having a continuing story through the series would not have automatically made the movies better by any means... but I wish they had done it anyway. Personal preference.

 

[Charles Trip Tucker III]

jon1701 said:
Its generally accepted that Treks II through IV are a trilogy of sorts, and although it was never planned as such this continuing story was very much to the benefit of the franchise. Although The Final Frontier had its own story, it cleary took place directly after The Voyage Home. The Motion Picture and The Undiscovered Country are perhaps not tied in as tightly, but they are still part of the journey for these characters.

One of the main problems with the TNG movies is that none of them really impact the other (with the exception of the destruction of the Enterprise). They are basically 4 different stories featuring the TNG cast. I cant help thinking they could have been better had the stories linked a little better.

Generally speaking, sequels usually follow on from the previous movies, but the TNG movies seem to follow on from the episodic nature of the TV series. It seems...I dunno, they just didnt take enough chances. I think they were also hampered by DS9 and VOY taking place in the background. The Trek Universe was continuing, and it seems there was a fear to tell stories that were outside of the chronology. The also had to shoe-horn in Worf as well.

I think it would have been much better to start Insurrection (if thats what the title would have been) right after the events of First Contact. The same goes for Nemesis. I think both of these movies would have turned out very different had this been the case.

Would this have been for the better? Would it make no difference?

Thoughts?

I agree. That's one thing that makes the TOS movies better than the TNG movies, that strong sense of continuity. Setting each movie a few years after the previous movie is fine, but they needed to make some effort to connect them. One thing I like about Generations is that it ties into The Undiscovered Country by setting the flashback scene a few months or a year after that movie. I liked that First Contact was a fresh break from GEN, it sort of marked a new beginning with the new ship, new uniforms, Geordi's ocular implants, Worf being on DS9, and so on. 8-10 should have been a trilogy. Have the Enterprise-E keep some Borg tech when we see it in INS and have Data keep the flesh he gained in FC. He acts emotional and has some flesh. When NEM rolls around, it could be revealed that he's had Starfleet doctors complete the process and extend skin all over his body. This would give Data a nice arc over the movies and an interesting end. He finally achieves emotion and flesh and then... dies. Tragic, eh? There's also the arc for the Ent-E keeping Borg technology and being upgrade and such. Worf should have been in civilian garb in NEM with his role more or less the same. I can't think of anything else right now, but you get my point. The stories didn't need to be connected, but there needed to be a sense of change. That's why I was thrilled when they destroyed the Ent-D and gave us the Ent-E, gave Data emotions, had Worf go to DS9, and so on. Unfortunately, they played it safe in NEM by ignoring Data's emotion chip and acting as if Worf never left.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

Don't blame NEM, they started playing it safe from the get-go. In FC, Data can turn the emotions off at will; in INS the chip is no longer fused to his neural net, and he apparently leaves it in his sock drawer for the whole mission. So much for progression of character.

 

[T'Cal]

TOS movies had an advantage over TNG's. DS9 and VOY were on the air so the writers kept TNG movies running in real time, so to speak. The movies' writers couldn't rightly and successfully disregard the ongoing events occurring in those shows. Virtually no time passed between the three TOS movies, which allowed the writers more flexibility and fewer constraints.

Data and Worf were two of Trek's richest characters before the movies. That legacy was, for the most part, ignored in the four pix. As much as I enjoy Worf, his character should've been left out of the last two films. I was disappointed by how they handled Data's emotion chip as well, although I have to admit, his sacrificial death in NEM was excellent. Still, it was cheapened by the survival of B4. What a mess!

 

[Charles Trip Tucker III]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

cardinal biggles said:
Don't blame NEM, they started playing it safe from the get-go. In FC, Data can turn the emotions off at will; in INS the chip is no longer fused to his neural net, and he apparently leaves it in his sock drawer for the whole mission. So much for progression of character.

I didn't mind the on/off feature in FC, but I agree that it was poorly handled in INS.

 

[Orac]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

Star Trek 3 and 4 had to have continuity with 2 by neccessity i.e. 3 had to bring back Spock and 4 had to resolve the loose ends left by 3. There weren't any unresolved plot points at the end of 8 so no neccessity to make 9 a direct continuation.

 

[Harvey]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

Charles Trip Tucker III said:

cardinal biggles said:
Don't blame NEM, they started playing it safe from the get-go. In FC, Data can turn the emotions off at will; in INS the chip is no longer fused to his neural net, and he apparently leaves it in his sock drawer for the whole mission. So much for progression of character.

I didn't mind the on/off feature in FC, but I agree that it was poorly handled in INS.

What's the problem with it? In Generations, he gets the emotion chip for the first time, and has trouble adapting to it. In First Contact, he's advanced to where he can turn it off if need be, and is still adapting to the emotions. In Insurrection, he's advanced to where he can remove the emotion chip. This is the same in Nemesis. Seems like a natural enough progression to me. It's not like Data was going to become human overnight.

 

[WalkinMan]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

Yes! The TNG films series' longevity would have been aided by a continuing storyline. I think that making the followup to FC more of a sequel in spirit and tone would have helped, in addition to having plot developments/stories following on.

Perhaps the crew would return to a future that is in deep peril, or something. More action and a straightforward adventure...

 

[cardinal biggles]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

Hirogen Alpha said:

Charles Trip Tucker III said:

cardinal biggles said:
Don't blame NEM, they started playing it safe from the get-go. In FC, Data can turn the emotions off at will; in INS the chip is no longer fused to his neural net, and he apparently leaves it in his sock drawer for the whole mission. So much for progression of character.

I didn't mind the on/off feature in FC, but I agree that it was poorly handled in INS.

What's the problem with it? In Generations, he gets the emotion chip for the first time, and has trouble adapting to it. In First Contact, he's advanced to where he can turn it off if need be, and is still adapting to the emotions. In Insurrection, he's advanced to where he can remove the emotion chip. This is the same in Nemesis. Seems like a natural enough progression to me. It's not like Data was going to become human overnight.

Except that it defeats the point of Data's quest to be more human. Humans can't turn their emotions off at will, nor can they simply "not have them." If Data was to truly emulate humans, he wouldn't turn them off or take them out, but learn to live with them and manage them. It made for a cute bit in FC, but if anything the removal of the chip in INS and NEM actually regressed Data's character.

 

[Charles Trip Tucker III]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

I liked that Data had an on/off feature for his emotion chip. It kept showed that Data kept the emotion chip and is thus more Human than in the TV series, but it also reminds us he's still a machine in that he can turn it off when desired.

I agree that INS and NEM effectively regressed the character to how he was in the TV series. Besides, why would he take it out if it has an off switch?

 

[cardinal biggles]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

^As the Borg Queen demonstrated, there were ways of forcing the emotion chip to turn on, so one would assume Data left it behind to prevent that from happening.

 

[Charles Trip Tucker III]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

How often is he gonna run into a cyborg?

 

[Harvey]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

^^
Which is why it seems like a perfectly acceptable progression to me, even if it means Data's journey towards humanity would take longer (excluding the end of Nemesis here, though ironically, by dying, Data may have achieved what he was trying for all those years)

 

[cardinal biggles]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

Charles Trip Tucker III said:
How often is he gonna run into a cyborg?

I didn't mean he was afraid he was going to run into the Borg on that mission. Maybe the chip is vulnerable to reverse-charged tetryon particles and waves of hyper-polarized techno-bullshit. Whatever. Mike Piller didn't like the chip, so he wrote it out of the story.

 

[Charles Trip Tucker III]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

Hirogen Alpha said:
Which is why it seems like a perfectly acceptable progression to me, even if it means Data's journey towards humanity would take longer (excluding the end of Nemesis here, though ironically, by dying, Data may have achieved what he was trying for all those years)

Removing the emotion chip doesn't slow down Data's journey, it regresses it. Dying doesn't make Data Human, it makes Data dead.

cardinal biggles said:
Mike Piller didn't like the chip, so he wrote it out of the story.

I would have prefered Piller to accept that Data has changed and go from there instead of regressing him.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

Hirogen Alpha said:
Which is why it seems like a perfectly acceptable progression to me, even if it means Data's journey towards humanity would take longer (excluding the end of Nemesis here, though ironically, by dying, Data may have achieved what he was trying for all those years)

It was a retarded plot device to begin with. The whole point of Data's journey was that it was a gradual progression, and then they throw in this magic chip that allows him to pass "Go" and collect his $200. And what was it ultimately? It's comic relief in an otherwise pretty bleak film (Kirk dies twice; the Enterprise gets trashed; Picard spends most of the film brooding over Robert and Rene). Moore and Braga did it for the lulz.

But as soon as the cat was out of the bag, they spent all their time trying to find ways around the emotion chip. He can turn it off! He can stick it in his sock drawer! We can just not mention it (to the point where Data states at one point in NEM that he "feels nothing," i.e., has no emotions)! Then that certainly beggars the question what was the point of introducing the damned idiot thing in the first place?!?

Not that I expect you to have the answer to that question, Hirogen, just getting something off my chest.

 

[Charles Trip Tucker III]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

To be fair, the emotion chip was introduced at the start of Season 4, so I think the plan was that Data would eventually get an emotion chip, but not until the show was over. I'm guessing that had their not been movies, they would have had Data installing it in the final episode.

We see him want emotions for three years, then almost get the emotion chip only for Lore to snatch it away, want emotions for another three years, get the emotion chip, decide not to use it for a year for fear of becoming like Lore, and then finally, he got emotions, his quest has come to a close. Oops, nevermind, emotions are overrated. Thanks, Piller and Logan.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Re: Would the TNG movies have benefited from a continuing st

Maybe this is just because I'm looking back in hindsight, but the chip was stupid to begin with. It would have been better if Data's emotions were another group of programs that Soong had locked down until Data reached a certain level of maturity, similar to the dreaming subroutines unlocked in "Birthright."