Would Something Like Section 31 Exist in Real Life?

[Tenacity]

Star Trek Destiny Trilogy for example or Heir to the Empire by Timothy Zahn shows that tie-in fiction can have tremendous merit and be quality in its own right.

if it were simply a matter of "quality" some episodes would not be canon.

The books at best exist in their own little pocket universe(s), disconnected from the show's canon universe. They're not even junior level "semi-canon" the way the Star Wars novels used to be before Disney bought the franchise.

On top of that, the majority of the fans (even hard core fans) just don't typically read the novels, certainly don't follow the novels.

 

[Kor]

That's an unfortunately common but unfair and rather mean spirited attitude to the authors and readers of franchise fiction-the Star Trek Destiny Trilogy for example or Heir to the Empire by Timothy Zahn shows that tie-in fiction can have tremendous merit and be quality in its own right.

I never said they didn't have merit and quality. There are plenty of Trek books and games that I enjoy immensely more than a lot of canon episodes and movies.

Kor

 

[fireproof78]

Quality does not equal canonization.
I really don't think that needed to be said, but ok, there it is.

I also stick by my answer that S31 could exist in the real world. Often times, leaders will use power to do what they feel is necessary to protect the public, regardless of the law. And, the interesting part is the fact that contemporary American society encourages it. What do we enjoy? Shows like "Daredevil" "Breaking Bad" "Fast and Furious" and the like, people who operate outside of the rules to accomplish their goals and desires.

Is it that far of a stretch to imagine someone in an intelligence agency deciding that he's had enough of red tape, and is going to find ways to do what he thinks is right?

 

[Spot261]

Quality does not equal canonization.
I really don't think that needed to be said, but ok, there it is.

I also stick by my answer that S31 could exist in the real world. Often times, leaders will use power to do what they feel is necessary to protect the public, regardless of the law. And, the interesting part is the fact that contemporary American society encourages it. What do we enjoy? Shows like "Daredevil" "Breaking Bad" "Fast and Furious" and the like, people who operate outside of the rules to accomplish their goals and desires.

Is it that far of a stretch to imagine someone in an intelligence agency deciding that he's had enough of red tape, and is going to find ways to do what he thinks is right?

You mean a bit like James Bond? Or Jack Bauer?

 

[fireproof78]

You mean a bit like James Bond? Or Jack Bauer?

Yes, thank you. I knew there were several other examples that I couldn't think of at the time.

 

[arch101]

Wouldn't surprise me in the least if something like S31 really exists. The Cold War gave rise to all kinds of crazy "red scare" paramilitary ideas. An organization that works for American style democracy and against Stalinism and is "plausibly deniable" by the President and Congress seems like it would be right at home in the '50s or '60s. Such an organization may have existed at one time and no longer be in operation, unlike S31 which seems to have run continuously for over 200 years.

 

[Voth commando1]

Well the CIA has the SAD and the US and the various special forces.

 

[Dwayne Milius]

No. They do not exist. There are no secrets. Do not go looking, it would just distract you from enjoying internet porn.

That is all.

Hahahahahah

 

[Sci]

I find it highly improbable that there is a permanent organization that puts itself above the law at all times and answers to nobody. But there have certainly been many conspiracies within the government comprised of people who attempt to evade the law.

As for the canon issue --

Canon is not a measure of quality.

Canon in this context simply means that it is the body of work upon which other works are based. The body is defined by the owners of the intellectual property in question. CBS Studios owns Star Trek; CBS defines, and before it, Paramount defined, the Star Trek canon as the films and TV shows sans the animated series.

Thus, only Star Trek: The Original Series, Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager, Star Trek: Enterprise, Star Trek: Discovery, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, Star Trek: Generations, Star Trek: First Contact, Star Trek: Insurrection, Star Trek: Nemesis, Star Trek (2009), Stark Trek Into Darkness, and Star Trek Beyond constitute the canon.

This is, again, not a statement of quality. Nor is it an attack upon the works' relevance. There have been some wonderful, influential Star Trek novels published that even influenced later installments in the canon. They are still not canonical.

The quality of a work of TrekLit is not defined by whether or not it is part of the canon. All that being part of the canon means is that future canonical and non-canonical works must be consistent with that entry. That's all.

Edited to add:

Yes, Lucasfilm does that silly "all our licensed works are canon, too!" nonsense, but it's always been marketing nonsense. Sure, it's cool that everything more or less interconnects -- but it is obvious that if the filmmakers want to disregard something in a supposedly "canonical" work, they will. Which is exactly what happened when Lucasfilm decided to make The Force Awakens -- they threw out the entire Star Wars Expanded Universe continuity. Because even if they called it "canonical," it was never really canonical, because they were never really going to let the novels dictate what the new films were going to do.

 

[Voth commando1]

I find it highly improbable that there is a permanent organization that puts itself above the law at all times and answers to nobody. But there have certainly been many conspiracies within the government comprised of people who attempt to evade the law.

As for the canon issue --

Canon is not a measure of quality.

Canon in this context simply means that it is the body of work upon which other works are based. The body is defined by the owners of the intellectual property in question. CBS Studios owns Star Trek; CBS defines, and before it, Paramount defined, the Star Trek canon as the films and TV shows sans the animated series.

Thus, only Star Trek: The Original Series, Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager, Star Trek: Enterprise, Star Trek: Discovery, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, Star Trek: Generations, Star Trek: First Contact, Star Trek: Insurrection, Star Trek: Nemesis, Star Trek (2009), Stark Trek Into Darkness, and Star Trek Beyond constitute the canon.

This is, again, not a statement of quality. Nor is it an attack upon the works' relevance. There have been some wonderful, influential Star Trek novels published that even influenced later installments in the canon. They are still not canonical.

The quality of a work of TrekLit is not defined by whether or not it is part of the canon. All that being part of the canon means is that future canonical and non-canonical works must be consistent with that entry. That's all.

Edited to add:

Yes, Lucasfilm does that silly "all our licensed works are canon, too!" nonsense, but it's always been marketing nonsense. Sure, it's cool that everything more or less interconnects -- but it is obvious that if the filmmakers want to disregard something in a supposedly "canonical" work, they will. Which is exactly what happened when Lucasfilm decided to make The Force Awakens -- they threw out the entire Star Wars Expanded Universe continuity. Because even if they called it "canonical," it was never really canonical, because they were never really going to let the novels dictate what the new films were going to do.

Have you ever heard of the tier system? It worked. Was Lucas or Lucasfilm obligated to follow the EU? No. However it the EU was integrated together far better than Trek Lit was for most of its(Trek) existence. You hand Leland Chee and the Holocron, Pablo Hidalgo, and Sue Rostoni, also Shelly Shapiro at Lucasfilm they kept everything tied together.

If it was never canon why did everybody make such a big deal out of the April 2014 announcement then? If it was just marketing fluff then I don't think for one the fan reaction would have been as intense and to why bother to make an official decanonization statement to begin with?

 

[Sci]

Have you ever heard of the tier system?

Ah, yes. The infamous "everything is canon UNLESS Work A contradicts Work B, in which case A outranks B in deciding what is 'real'" system.

All of which is an elaborate way of saying, no, it didn't all actually fit together, some stuff contradicted other stuff, and the movies (aka, the actual body of work that all these derivative bodies of work were based on) didn't have to stay in continuity with any of it.

It worked.

It was, indeed, a brilliant marketing gimmick. But when the time came to make Episode VII, the Star Wars novels, comics, and games were no more binding on the actual Star Wars films than Star Trek novels, comics, and games are on the actual Star Trek shows and films.

However it the EU was integrated together far better than Trek Lit was for most of its(Trek) existence.

Because TrekLit's goal for most of its existence was not to create the illusion of each novel taking place in continuity with every other novel.

If it was never canon why did everybody make such a big deal out of the April 2014 announcement then?

Because it was a marketing gimmick, and once it became clear that, no, the sequel trilogy was not going to be about how Palpatine comes back in a clone body and Luke marries Mara Jade and Chewbacca dies fighting extragalactic tentacle monsters obsessed with the letter "Y," the need to just acknowledge that all those old novels were no longer in a shared continuity with the actual Star Wars canon overrode the need to maintain the illusion created by the marketing gimmick of "tiered canonocity."

If it was just marketing fluff then I don't think for one the fan reaction would have been as intense

Of course it would have. Fans lapped up the marketing gimmick of "it's all canon," because it made them feel like it made reading a Star Wars novel a more "valuable" experience than reading a non-canonical novel from another franchise. But that's all it ever was -- a marketing gimmick. It didn't actually all fit together, the need for it all to fit together was pretty superfluous to the primary need of any novel (to tell a good story), and ultimately the movies were never going to bound by what the novels established.

The only substantive difference between Trek Lit and SW Lit is that Trek Lit doesn't depend on the marketing gimmick of calling it all "canon." Trek Lit acknowledges that while it is always consistent with the canon (as the canon exists at the time of publication), it is itself not canonical and the canon could still contradict it in the future. SW Lit just pretends the films have to stay in continuity with it when they don't.

 

[gantoris]

Of course. In real life the Federation would be seen as soft or weak by the other powers. I'm sure without something like Section 31, the Tal Shiar, the Obsidian Order and what ever the Klingon equivalent is would perform routinely sabotage, espionage against the Federation.

 

[Voth commando1]

Ah, yes. The infamous "everything is canon UNLESS Work A contradicts Work B, in which case A outranks B in deciding what is 'real'" system.

All of which is an elaborate way of saying, no, it didn't all actually fit together, some stuff contradicted other stuff, and the movies (aka, the actual body of work that all these derivative bodies of work were based on) didn't have to stay in continuity with any of it.



It was, indeed, a brilliant marketing gimmick. But when the time came to make Episode VII, the Star Wars novels, comics, and games were no more binding on the actual Star Wars films than Star Trek novels, comics, and games are on the actual Star Trek shows and films.



Because TrekLit's goal for most of its existence was not to create the illusion of each novel taking place in continuity with every other novel.



Because it was a marketing gimmick, and once it became clear that, no, the sequel trilogy was not going to be about how Palpatine comes back in a clone body and Luke marries Mara Jade and Chewbacca dies fighting extragalactic tentacle monsters obsessed with the letter "Y," the need to just acknowledge that all those old novels were no longer in a shared continuity with the actual Star Wars canon overrode the need to maintain the illusion created by the marketing gimmick of "tiered canonocity."



Of course it would have. Fans lapped up the marketing gimmick of "it's all canon," because it made them feel like it made reading a Star Wars novel a more "valuable" experience than reading a non-canonical novel from another franchise. But that's all it ever was -- a marketing gimmick. It didn't actually all fit together, the need for it all to fit together was pretty superfluous to the primary need of any novel (to tell a good story), and ultimately the movies were never going to bound by what the novels established.

The only substantive difference between Trek Lit and SW Lit is that Trek Lit doesn't depend on the marketing gimmick of calling it all "canon." Trek Lit acknowledges that while it is always consistent with the canon (as the canon exists at the time of publication), it is itself not canonical and the canon could still contradict it in the future. SW Lit just pretends the films have to stay in continuity with it when they don't.

It was canon, there was official efforts at Lucasfilm in keeping in that way,


The Yuuzhan Vong weren't tentacle monsters and by God above the NJO was some of the most dynamic, and wonderful novels in existence. Better I'd say than the OT.

And yes it did fit together-all books, comics, and video games(there would often be a canon ending) melded quite beautifully.

What wasn't canon was either cut material, Tagge and Binks, Infinities, and Lego Star Wars. Among one or two other things.

The novels, comics, and games were of course subordinate to the films but they held together.

By the way Palpatine coming back was great. And Mara is the best.

I get it you didn't like the EU the fact though you said tentacle monsters I know you have no real idea about its content.

 

[Trekkin]

Palpatine comes back in a clone body

Thank god.

I'm not saying I couldn't cope if the movies had decided to follow it. But by the time the novels finally nut up and killed him off (by Force Ghost-ex-machina, no less), he was starting to reach Doctor Doom levels of death cop-outs.

Doesn't help that, thirty frigging years and a dozen more interesting villains later, the EU still couldn't let him go. Of course he had to have a fucking connection to the Yuuzhan Vong. And if anyone ever needed a vaguely sympathetic motive tacked on to their backstory, it was the damn Evil Emperor.

 

[Voth commando1]

Thank god.

I'm not saying I couldn't cope if the movies had decided to follow it. But by the time the novels finally nut up and killed him off (by Force Ghost-ex-machina, no less), he was starting to reach Doctor Doom levels of death cop-outs.

Doesn't help that, thirty frigging years and a dozen more interesting villains later, the EU still couldn't let him go. Of course he had to have a fucking connection to the Yuuzhan Vong. And if anyone ever needed a vaguely sympathetic motive tacked on to their backstory, it was the damn Evil Emperor.

The fact that he had an inkling of the Vong doesn't make him sympathetic. He wanted to be dark God of the universe the Vong were just another obstacle in the way.

Now IU Imperial loyalists might argue yeah he wanted to save the Galaxy from the Vong is the opinion of bitter die hards and patriots it's not an opinion the readers or heck the IU protagonists are supposed to take seriously.

 

[Voth commando1]

And the EU did let him go, his last few Legends appearances were the wonderful Darth Plagueis and maybe another book or something around that time. A maul book I believe.

 

[Trekkin]

"Building the Empire and various useless superweapons to protect the universe he wants to rule,' is a more sympathetic motivation than 'does stupidly evil things just for lolz.'

Even his boundless ambition was an expansion by the EU (and later confirmed by the prequels). In the original trilogy, he was just meant to be pure evil in wrinkly form. Not any specific evil, just stupidly all-out evil. The sort of guy who would kick a puppy just because it's cute.

And considering the line rebooted not long after the Maul book, excuse me if I'm unimpressed with the EU's ability to cut the Emperor apron strings.

 

[Smellincoffee]

I think what we hear about the CIA is only a little bit of what they do. At this point organizations like them are so entrenched and powerful that I don't think it's possible even for a president who loathed them, who was willing to attack them publicly and privately, to really rein them in. Until the last decade or so, virtually nothing was known about the NSA. I think it's more likely there are organizations that operate so much in the shadows that the central government isn't aware of their sections than that we have an entire organization that everyone has forgotten about, though.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if there was something out there that just uses the CIA as its diversion.

 

[Triskelion]

Plenty of professional authors write fanfic, which is unlicensed product created without permission of the legal copyright owners of an intellectual property. Quality is moot. The legal owners of the property hold an official policy of making its Tv and Film products official canon, to which all other official products should endorse rather than contradict (more or less).

The property owners have determined that their licensed ancillary products like tie-in novels written to order or on spec, or video games, which are not even narratives, are not bound by the official story lines; nor are to be edited to conform to "canon" as that would likely subvert their purpose as a profit-making commercial business. What is canon or not is simply a moot debate. It is the private property of a company that decides its own story scope.

There is nothing whatsoever about licensing that determines quality of any licensed or unlicensed work; licensing merely assures a certain quality standard be maintained, if you want the company to engage its for-profit, limited-resource marketing apparatus. But just because a licensed canon work has a quality floor doesn't mean any "non-canon" work has a quality ceiling. The world "Canon" itself is an in-company definition - not a social one. There is no social one. So, nothing to debate.

It's up to writers and fans to decide which aspects they wish to incorporate into their stories. Of course, for licensed works, the company can torpedo any idea it wants to. Novels and videogame works go off on too many different tangents to even begin to incorporate into any mainstream storyline - and would risk alienating that vital new audience buck.


As for Section 31-type agencies - the very act of conducting any amount of business outside of the nation means it operates "beyond" the national law - and either must operate within the other country's laws, or go into international waters or unclaimed lands, where it is subject to fewer authorities if any. In today's reality, every agency with interests overseas already operates beyond the direct reach of its home country's justice system. A globalized world is as full of legal holes as a sponge.

 

[Voth commando1]

The EU did let him go and him knowing about the Vong doesn't make him sympathetic Palpatine wanted to be a dark God of the universe-the Vong were just another step in the way.