Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by The Overlord, Nov 25, 2011.

  1. MANT!

    MANT! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Mar 14, 2005
    in Atomo-vision
    I'll let the following answer for me...

  2. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Dec 26, 2007
    Baltimore, MD
    While Nemesis had many flaws, the OP only wants to know if the movie would have been better without the Remans, so I'll attempt to answer that question.

    First of all, I don't think the problem was the existence of the Remans per se. For decades we all knew of the existence of Remus (or Romii, or RomII depending on your take of the Neutral Zone diagram in "Balance of Terror"), but previous fandom simply believed that this second planet was also populated by Romulans as well. That's certainly what the early Diane Duane novels implied. Since there was absolutely no canon information up to that point about the Remans or Remus, if someone wanted to come along and reinterpret the Remans as being some kind of Romulan lower-class slave race that does all the grunt work in the Empire, that would have been fine with me.

    The problem was the actual portrayal of the Remans in the movie. Contrary to KingDaniel's assertion that he thinks that space vampires are cool, I thought the Remans were not cool. They were basically Nosferatu rejects with costumes straight out of a Tim Burton Batman movie. They looked like vampires for no other reason than that they were supposed to be "EEEVVVIIILLLLL!!!!!" They were complete cardboard villains, and even the great Ron Perlman was completely wasted in this film. I think that at some point between the idea for this movie and what was eventually filmed, we the audience were supposed to feel sorry for these poor creatures because they were enslaved, but nowhere did I feel the least bit of sympathy for them for the reasons stated above. And to top it all off, the film didn't even have the courtesy to make it clear about just what the Remans' origins were. Were they originally Vulcans like the Romulans? Were they aliens that were already living on Remus when the Romulans arrived 2,000 years ago? If they were originally Vulcans, how could they possibly have changed to look like they do in only 2,000 years? Why would they have developed fangs?

    Nor did I ever feel that Shinzon really gave a crap about the Remans despite what he said about wanting to liberate them, but of course that has more to do with Shinzon's problems as a character than the Remans themselves.

    I do think the Remans were necessary to the overall story, but that they really needed to be presented in a completely different way, and have the audience care more about them. But the film didn't do either of those things.
  3. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Nov 18, 2005
    I agree with a lot of that. I remember feeling that the crew looked so old, tired, and bloated when I saw Nemesis in the theater. The whole affair just felt tired with even the reaction to Data's death being muted. Heck, even Riker's reaction to Troi's mind rape was a bit tame. He should've beamed over to the Scimitar and beat the stuffing out of Shinzon, or at least made the attempt. And if not him, Worf.

    Even though I didn't think the Remans should've been included, or made so monstrous, I don't think they were the sole problem. I wish the Berman had had confidence that the Romulans were good enough to carry a film and that they were more multidimensional-potentially-than the Remans could be. That being said, I am finally glad that we got to see a subject species in the Romulan Empire. I got tired of seeing these 'empires' composed of just one species.

    There was a sense of stagnation and it was evident in ENT too. Compared to BSG and LOST, plus many of the other genre shows of that time, it just didn't feel vital, it wasn't gripping, it rarely had you on the edge of your seat. ENT is better in retrospect than the first time around, but that doesn't mean much since I don't think it did enough of its job when it should've to hook in viewers. NEM didn't either.
  4. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Nov 18, 2005
    I agree with you about the Remans being presented differently, and about their overly monstrous appearance. But I do think that Shinzon cared about them. He seemed to have a father-son relationship with his Viceroy and his best scene to me was his talk with Picard about Reman liberation. I wish this had been expanded on more. It would've given Shinzon more depth, but NEM was bound and determined to make sure the audience knew he was evil, so they undercut his nice speech with Troi's mind rape, just to remind the audience that Shinzon wasn't sympathetic, as if his slow walk intro from the shadows wasn't a big enough clue.

    I also disagree that the Remans were supposed to be seen as sympathetic. From their conception as vampiric-looking beings, they were supposed to be monsters, and the Federation or Picard evinced little sympathy for them (not like his standing with the Ba'ku). And the Remans were pretty two-dimensional and brutish. They were not supposed to be characters or a species that was meant to be understood. Even the Son'a got more development and a backstory (as you pointed out the Remans didn't, and I agree we should've learned more about them). This could've been done during the Shinzon-Picard dinner.

    Ultimately I don't think the Remans were needed. Shinzon could've easily been a renegade Romulan captain. The only thing that would've been lost is the clone angle. Also the excuse to get Picard into the action is already provided by the Enterprise being the flagship. If the new Praetor wanted a meeting, they would likely send Picard anyway. There was no need for the Remans (since Shinzon wasn't developed enough to make him a liberator and what little was done for that was dashed by turning him into a genocidal rapist). And the B-4 story wasn't needed either. Heck, taking out the Remans could've been the linchpin to making the movie better overall since it would've perhaps erased the need for B-4. And you had Ron Pearlman already, he could've been the main villain, though I could see him more as a Klingon or Jem'Hadar.
  5. smalltalk66

    smalltalk66 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Oct 16, 2006
    The Remans were NOT cool. They were, in actuality, straight up rip-offs of the alien villians from the Last Starfighter movie--right down to the bickering between Shinzon and his Viceroy. Hell, even Worf's line in First Contact ("Prepare for ramming speed") was lifted directly from the Last Starfighter. Not cool.
  6. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

    Oct 25, 2009
    NEM was such a great opportunity, the first Trek movie in which the Romulans take center stage.
    But then the vampires from the dark side of the moon took over the Romulan Empire and made the Romulans look ridiculous.
    ST09 was such a great opportunity, the first Trek movie in which Vulcans and Romulans take center stage.
    But then the Romulans shaved their heads, got wicked tattoos, wielded nasty pole weapons and looked ridiculous.

    Villains who twirl their mustaches ...
  7. Satyrquaze

    Satyrquaze Vice Admiral Admiral

    Nov 10, 2010
    I liked Nemesis, but it has it's flaws, maybe we could compromise:

    Shinzon still could have been a clone or something, but they really did NOT need to create the Remans. The plot would have gotten on just fine without them. The new Preator could have been a known Romulan. Like Tomalak or Sela; not some new character created just for the film.

    Not that it would have been a successful film finanically given it's competition, but it would have been more enjoyable overall at least to me.
  8. Uxi

    Uxi Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Aug 17, 2011
    Southern California
    The Remans are one of the few things I like about Nemesis. More about them settling the score with the Romulans could have been good and instead of yet another attack at Earth, the Ent-E could have been trying to prevent the Scimitar's use against Romulus, perhaps.

    Ditch the clone angle and anything to do with B4 and the dune buggy plz.
  9. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Nov 18, 2005
    With your idea, I don't see the need for including a clone at all. If you want a Romulan praetor (who I am assuming would be the main villain) what is the point of having a clone? Unless you want to use the clone to replace Picard?

    I did like some of the rumored ideas I heard about Picard already being replaced by a clone. I think that could've been an interesting way to go. But really, I don't think NEM needed a clone villain or the Remans.

    I also don't buy that competition alone killed the film. It didn't just under perform, it bombed domestically. If the film had been good, to Trek fans alone, then it could've had a decent enough run, and you might could say that stiff competition kept it from earning more. But since it bombed, competition alone isn't the reason it failed. And I'm saying this as a person that came to appreciate NEM upon a second viewing. It's not completely bad, there are potentially good ideas there that just aren't realized.
  10. Morpheus 02

    Morpheus 02 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Feb 3, 2003
    Chicago IL
    No, competition by itself wasn't the reason, but it was a major factor, and especially when you compare the "hype" & attitude between the 2.

    Return of the King was an EVENT, certainly for me. i took a day off of work so i could see the midnight show with about 10 friends. We were waiting a year for it.

    And i would have been excited to see it again in the theaters (and still am, catching a few minutes when it re-runs for the 1,245th time on SPike).

    The Phantom Menace a similar event, greatly anticipated.

    With Nemesis it was more like "Well, it's got to be better than Insurrection, since it's an even-numered movie", and i planned to wait till Christmas to see it.

    And while i went to see it with somefellow Trek fans....we certainly definitely didn't have the sense of excitement & urgency that i had seeing Return of the King on the first day.

    I agree with most that the Remans were totally not necessary.

    Romulans would have been great. And the "mind rape" thing could have been due to a "mutant" Romulan with special telepathy powers (due to be Vulcanoid). Maybe he could have touched Troi creating a sort of mind meld that can at least reach within a solar system.

    If we had real Romulans instead of Remans, we could have an Undiscovered Country type of movie, which creates peace with the Romulans in a way that the Klingon peace treaty set the stage for a fuller handoff to TNG.

    Tomalak would have been good, certainly for Trek fans, as a smart villain that could have a good reason to go against Picard (and maybe NOThave to die, as most villains do).
  11. BriGuy

    BriGuy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Sep 29, 2001
    Pittsburgh, PA, USA
    Trailer seems fine to me.
  12. Balrog

    Balrog Commodore Commodore

    Jan 12, 2008
    They didn't need the Remans. They could have used a political faction within Romulan society bent on the takeover of the Romulan empire and destruction of earth.

    They didn't even need the Picard clone. Make the new praetor villain a Hitler type, naming himself chancellor and bent on the military conquest of the Alpha quadrant.
  13. Trek Survivor

    Trek Survivor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jan 12, 2009
    I liked the Remans and thought they worked well in the film; actually, I'd keep them and get rid of the Romulans. They'd been way overused in modern Trek by that point.
  14. Gojira

    Gojira Commodore Commodore

    Oct 15, 2008
    Stompin' on Tokyo

    I agree. I didn't mind the Remans but hated the make up. I would have liked to have explored them more.
  15. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    QC, IL, USA
    If we had decided to make the Romulans the focus of the TNG movies, "Insurrection" and "Nemesis" could have made an excellent duology. Get rid of the Son'a and Ba'Ku and replace them with Romulans and Vulcans, and you've basically got a resolution to the Unification story from the TNG series. You could then build off of it with NEM to create a big Romulan story where we finally make peace with them.

    Of course, I do wonder what happened between the end of DS9 and NEM that made the Romulans our enemies again. They were our allies during the Dominion War.

    The Remans were, much like the Son'a, a race that came out of nowhere that I was supposed to care about for some reason. We've dealth with the Romulans for so long that introducing this weird slave race of theirs just seemed like it came completely out of left field.
  16. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Vice Admiral Premium Member

    May 19, 2005
    "Allies" and "friends" are 2 very different things.

    The Romulans knew the threat the Dominion posed and did what they had to.
  17. jpch

    jpch Commander Red Shirt

    Nov 22, 2011
    Delta Quadrant Borg Queen appartement 8472
    Nemesis was good,its the last thing we saw of The TNG cast...the story was really original and i enjoyed the concept of Remans.
  18. Kronos

    Kronos Admiral Admiral

    Apr 20, 2001
    Running with the Badgers
    One of the reasons I hated Nemesis was the Remens, never before in Trek were we told their was a separate race and a slave race to boot, then all of a sudden they are and the make up is so bad it makes 1970's horror movies look good.

  19. Who1

    Who1 Commander Red Shirt

    Jul 30, 2004
    Romulans are kinda boring. They have dated uniforms and makeup, cool ships, ho-hum villainous moments... John Logan's script didn't do them justice (rehashing tired things we've seen before when it comes to Fed-Romulan, Worf-Romulan reconciliation, cutting from technobabble space battles to dull as dirt senators arguing was tiresome, and not including Sela seemed like a missed opportunity) but at least the Remans were imposing and interesting-looking, if not well-developed.
  20. CaptainMatt

    CaptainMatt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Dec 11, 2011
    Sector 001
    I still would rather have seen Romulans in the fillm, Sela included, instead of Remans. Then we might have gotten our big Romulans in a Trek movie moment.