Would Into Darkness have been a better film if Khan was not the villain?

[fireproof78]

I think that would have been a huge minority. There were TONS of trekkies that were pissed Khan was in this movie.... and the new movie goers who didn't know who Khan was were "who the hell is Khan?" when Cumby made the big reveal.

If John Harrison were well acted as John Harrison then the audiences would likely go along with it.

and Spock yelling Khan... eesh. ...then Incredi-Spock going all Marvel at the end to catch Khan. Real Spock would have used his brain. Totally out of character.

"Real Spock?"

This Spock endured the destruction of his entire planet, then looses a commanding officer (Pike) and then looses a developing friendship (Kirk). The specter of death hovers around this Spock and you expect him to behave logically?

Talk about straining suspension of disbelief.

I think the point of a reboot was to be able to not be constrained by, even overly influenced by, the previous stories rather than getting to be very influenced by them, redoing them, that a reboot allowed you to go in a whole lot of new directions.

I agree. That's why I think Khan was not really needed. I'm willing to go along with it, but I personally love Marcus as the villain, as an admiral who feels that Starfleet is outmatched and needs an edge. Khan's inclusion was not really as important but I can work within the film with it. I just think, as you noted, the reboot would have benefited from not referring to Khan, and that Trek itself needs to move away from TWOK's shadow.

 

[Khan 2.0]

I think there is irony in that a typical complaint of the Berman films was they're all always trying to have a new Khan, that hurt the films and spoke to how Berman was a hack and ruining the franchise, and then the so very different films (that saved the franchise) again have a Khan-like villain in the first and Khan in the second.

and then a khan like villain in the 3rd

 

[Yanks]

"Real Spock?"

This Spock endured the destruction of his entire planet, then looses a commanding officer (Pike) and then looses a developing friendship (Kirk). The specter of death hovers around this Spock and you expect him to behave logically?

Talk about straining suspension of disbelief.

Spock lost his planet and mom in the last movie... and he already acted out his human frustrations.

Time has passed.

I do expect Spock to act like Spock (oh the horror). Nero's incursion should not have affected Spock's upbringing and/or education. The fact that Kirk cried and died should not result in what we saw at the end of the movie. Khan was not going to "get away". He had all of Star Fleet and probably every other Earth based organization (FBI/CIA/etc...) at his (their) disposal. ... AND he still had all Khan's people...

 

[F. King Daniel]

Spock lost his planet and mom in the last movie... and he already acted out his human frustrations.

Time has passed.

His mother died in front of him and then his entire planet was destroyed in a genocide. "Time has passed"??

The time of the 42-minute reset where nobody suffers ongoing trauma no matter what happened in the previous episode is what's passed. And rightly so. Spock in the Kelvin universe has been broken in ways TOS Spock never was.

 

[fireproof78]

Spock lost his planet and mom in the last movie... and he already acted out his human frustrations.

Time has passed.

And suspension of disbelief is completely broken. Trauma is not healed in a year. Sorry, but no. I don't expect "Spock to act like Spock" when something so big and tragic has not occurred to Spock in his life.

No, I do not buy it. Not one iota.

 

[Yanks]

And suspension of disbelief is completely broken. Trauma is not healed in a year. Sorry, but no. I don't expect "Spock to act like Spock" when something so big and tragic has not occurred to Spock in his life.

No, I do not buy it. Not one iota.

So Spock hasn't been trained and disciplined his entire life to suppress his emotions?

 

[F. King Daniel]

So Spock hasn't been trained and disciplined his entire life to suppress his emotions?

Have you watched Star Trek? How many times has Vulcan suppression actually worked? From Vulcans in ENT snapping at Archer, to Vulcan agents going rogue, a serial killer on Deep Space Nine, Tuvok's black market emotions in Voyager...

Even Spock cried because a big space cloud was lonely in TMP.

 

[fireproof78]

So Spock hasn't been trained and disciplined his entire life to suppress his emotions?

And we have seen that broken down in other situations. The whole point of Spock's character is that those emotions are intense, and need to be controlled, but that doesn't mean they will always be controlled.

Losing his mom and an entire planet is going to overwhelm those controls. It's ridiculous to think that he would just be fine. I think that demonstrates a misunderstanding of the character of Spock, of how Kelvin Spock and his experiences are different, and how such a significant trauma could impact him a year later.

 

[Yanks]

Have you watched Star Trek? How many times has Vulcan suppression actually worked? From Vulcans in ENT snapping at Archer, to Vulcan agents going rogue, a serial killer on Deep Space Nine, Tuvok's black market emotions in Voyager...

Even Spock cried because a big space cloud was lonely in TMP.

"Have you watched Star Trek?"

I certainly aware of all those instances you mention.

None of which resulted in beaming down to Earth in pursuit of someone and vaulting to a moving garbage scow and, with the help of his girl friend, beat a person (superhuman) to within an inch of his life. (only stopped by said girlfriend)

Even in "Meld" (probably when Vulcan mind disipline is challenged the most) Tuvok, under the influence of a Bajoran whacko's mind influence, locked himself away when he knew his actions where going to impact others.

 

[fireproof78]

Even in "Meld" (probably when Vulcan mind disipline is challenged the most) Tuvok, under the influence of a Bajoran whacko's mind influence, locked himself away when he knew his actions where going to impact others

Tuvok is how old at this point? Not exactly identical situations when Spock watches his mom die, and almost his entire species wiped out.

 

[Yanks]

Losing his mom and an entire planet is going to overwhelm those controls. It's ridiculous to think that he would just be fine. I think that demonstrates a misunderstanding of the character of Spock, of how Kelvin Spock and his experiences are different, and how such a significant trauma could impact him a year later.

I never said he would be "just fine". Please don't use that in an attempt to justify Spock's out of character actions. Spock shouldn't cope with this trauma by physically reacting like he did, as fun and exciting as it was to watch.

 

[fireproof78]

I never said he would be "just fine". Please don't use that in an attempt to justify Spock's out of character actions. Spock shouldn't cope with this trauma by physically reacting like he did, as fun and exciting as it was to watch.

Agree to disagree then. I think its absurd to expect him not to act out.

 

[F. King Daniel]

None of which resulted in beaming down to Earth in pursuit of someone and vaulting to a moving garbage scow and, with the help of his girl friend, beat a person (superhuman) to within an inch of his life. (only stopped by said girlfriend)

None of them compare to what Spock endured in ST'09, either.

 

[Yanks]

Tuvok is how old at this point? Not exactly identical situations when Spock watches his mom die, and almost his entire species wiped out.

Not exactly identical indeed. Tuvok's situation required much more experience and discipline to keep under control.

Agree to disagree.

 

[fireproof78]

None of them compare to what Spock endured in ST'09, either.

Yup.

Not exactly identical indeed. Tuvok's situation required much more experience and discipline to keep under control.

Agree to disagree.

Then you and I have much different interpretations of what Spock went through.

Agree to disagree indeed.

 

[XCV330]

If you watch the vast majority of your world die, unable to stop it, including your mother, (and possibly your stepsister?) you're going to have issues you can't meditate or suppress away. You can cope with them perhaps, but they will always be there.

 

[fireproof78]

If you watch the vast majority of your world die, unable to stop it, including your mother, (and possibly your stepsister?) you're going to have issues you can't meditate or suppress away. You can cope with them perhaps, but they will always be there.

Trauma related disorders often come from a sense of "I could have stopped it" and a high degree of internal locus of control. Regardless of Spock's skills, even the most prepared person can struggle. I think Spock might have been OK if Pike hadn't died, if Kirk hadn't died, if more destruction wasn't wrought upon "the only home I have left."

 

[XCV330]

Trauma related disorders often come from a sense of "I could have stopped it" and a high degree of internal locus of control. Regardless of Spock's skills, even the most prepared person can struggle. I think Spock might have been OK if Pike hadn't died, if Kirk hadn't died, if more destruction wasn't wrought upon "the only home I have left."

communing with Pike as he died probably made things even worse. Taking all that loneliness and despair into himself when he was already struggling, well there's no equivalent to that in human experience.

 

[DarKush]

I also agree that Into Darkness didn’t need Khan. I still don’t accept that Benedict Cumberbatch’s character was Khan. Cumberbatch’s villain wasn’t bad. He was cold, calculating, cruel, but he wasn’t the same character that Ricardo Montalban played. And I didn’t buy the idea that Eugenics War-era Khan was genocidal in “Space Seed”. He was tyrannical but wasn’t about wiping out ‘lesser’ humans.


I thought Admiral Marcus was a good villain, and the true villain of the film. And making Khan something of a red herring villain, while unexpected and perhaps subverting expectations, also exposed how unnecessary it was to use Khan in the film. If Cumberbatch had just played Harrison, a rogue Starfleet officer I don’t see how much that would’ve changed the story.


Inserting Khan into it made the temptation too great to start aping The Wrath of Khan and it felt unearned with Kirk's death and quickie resurrection and then Spock yelling Khan's name, and then strange when it came to the magic blood. Where was the magic blood in the Prime Universe?

 

[fireproof78]

Where was the magic blood in the Prime Universe?

There but unneeded.