Would Into Darkness have been a better film if Khan was not the villain?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by The Overlord, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. The Overlord

    The Overlord Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Would Into Darkness have been a better film if Khan was not the villain? Khan is the most iconic villain from the TOS era, but I think it was a mistake to make him the main villain of Into Darkness. Khan already had his time to shine in the best Star Trek movie ever, Wrath of Khan and using Khan again just made people compare Into Darkness with TWOK. I think using a different villain or story element from TOS would have been better than using Khan again.
     
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  2. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    No, it would have been a better film if the story wasn't so incoherent.
    That being said, it's still the one I enjoy most out of the Kelvinverse trilogy.

    Kor
     
  3. The Overlord

    The Overlord Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    To each their own, I think its the weakest of the Kelvin verse films. I think cribbing key scenes from TWOK did not do Into Darkness any favors either.
     
  4. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    He was a good enough bad guy as John Harrison. He didn't need to be Khan.
     
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  5. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly. Having him as Khan was rather unnecessary, in my opinion. Star Trek Into Darkness is a solid enough film, and doesn't rip off TWOK as much as people accuse it of being. But, having Harrison as Harrison would have been an improvement, in my opinion.
     
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  6. donners22

    donners22 Commodore Commodore

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    Definitely. Khan was really a decoy villain in that film anyway, so there was no great value to having him. It also would have avoided redoing the death scene, which jarred me right out of the film the first time (though on subsequent viewings I thought it was really well presented in isolation).

    I still like it more than most Trek films, but having him as someone else would bump it into my top few.

    I kinda hoped for a sequel where it would turn out that he was one of Khan’s people who was covering for his leader, but no such luck.
     
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  7. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Commodore Commodore

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    He should have remained Ericssen, one of the other leaders in the Eugenics Wars.
     
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  8. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I thought it was great. Fans need to be as open to new versions of Khan as they are to new versions of the Joker.
     
  9. ScottJ85

    ScottJ85 Captain Captain

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    I still think it should have been one of the other Augments, and he should have become a secondary villain the moment Admiral Robocop and Section 31 got involved.
     
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  10. BillJ

    BillJ Canon Warrior Premium Member

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    We’ll never know.
     
  11. ScottJ85

    ScottJ85 Captain Captain

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    True, but it's fun to think about. For what it's worth I enjoyed STID, and personally I think it's a better Trek movie than a lot of fans give it credit for.
     
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  12. BillJ

    BillJ Canon Warrior Premium Member

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    It is my second favorite Trek movie behind TMP. :techman:
     
  13. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Commodore Commodore

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    No having him revealed as Khan was at least edge of the seat stuff at the time (for me anyway) and added to the scale of the movie and made it an epic retelling of SpaceSeed/TWOK . Had he just been Joe Bloggs terrorist then so what (like had Dark Knight & ManOfSteel had them go up against some random lesser known villain over joker/zod) .. remember this was a 200m Trek movie and the anticipated sequel (nuTreks 'T2') and it needed big guns like Klingons, Khan, Nimoy etc to get the excitement factor up to warp 9 (looks sternly at the excitement/anticipation free Beyond) ...

    unless hed have been connected to khan(joachim or another augment) and whose aim was to free cryo Khan stored in an S31 warehouse (end CG 1966 Montalban cameo) who'd either get defrosted or not - actually I think id have preferred that and wed got to see Montalban again (which would've been mind blowing.. can just picture the ending of Joachim or whoever locating the storehouse where Khan and his people are being kept along with the Botany Bay with Spock/kirk in hot pursuit and they get there either just before or just after he defrosted Khan.. cue mucho action and khanage )
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
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  14. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    Having avoided any spoilers, I was actually disappointed when the "big reveal" came that Harrison was Khan. I felt it was reaching and slightly gimmicky to just have the name recognition, IMO. I loved Cumberbatch as the bad guy in Into Darkness, but him being Khan did absolutely nothing for me personally. If Harrison had simply been an illegally genetically-engineered super soldier by Admiral Marcus, there could have still been the continuity connection to the Eugenics Wars and past Augments like Khan. Harrison would still be just as deadly both on Qo'noS & Earth, and maybe a good reason why Human augmentation is still banned even in the 24th-Century.

    All that being said, I don't think Harrison staying Harrison would have made Into Darkness a better movie. In the end, it probably wouldn't have made much difference except to a small number of Trek fans.
     
  15. Admiral Archer

    Admiral Archer Commander Red Shirt

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    I've always said that Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan was the Heath Ledger Joker moment of Star Trek, where a villain who was already really well done became so much greater, albeit different from earlier portrayals.
     
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  16. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

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    The way he was quickly introduced, revealed and defeated was too much, too fast, I think . At the very least, introduce him in one movie to build up the tension,and then pull the trigger in another movie.

    It's probably why Spock yelling "Khannnn!" fell flat.

    There's some other minor oddities like a man who looks European with a very European accent with the name of Khan, who was supposed to be south east Asian dictactor or prince.

    But other than that the John Harris character made for a good villain.
     
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  17. somebuddyx

    somebuddyx Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There are couple of other options in my opinion. He could be John Harrison, a pissed off Starfleet officer who is just a normal human. He could be John Harrison, a regular dude who was changed to be an augment and is a modern day follower of Khan's philosophies. He could be a completely different augment who was a follower of Khan and was awoken by Admiral Marcus, and at one point they walk past a freezer tube and we see a frozen Ricardo Montalban still inside. I think taking as many The Wrath of Khan references out of the film (like maybe Carol Marcus was Janet Wallace or someone new, no KHAAAAN death scene or any death scene at all) having the Enterprise/Vengeance battle take place somewhere other than Earth to remove the small universe syndrome would have made this more a standalone and a better film I feel. I think the core idea of a Federation being shocked by the destruction of Vulcan ramping up unchecked militarisation and false flag operations is an interesting idea but there's so much other baggage like Khan and Section 31 that it doesn't feel portrayed as well as it could have been.
     
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  18. Dales

    Dales Captain Captain

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    Yes. but it would also be considered a better film by default.
     
  19. ScottJ85

    ScottJ85 Captain Captain

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    I’m kind of thankful that when I saw STID for the first time I went into the wrong theater just in time to hear Scotty say “where’s Khan?”. Got the reveal out of the way early.
     
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  20. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Commodore Commodore

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    Carol Marcus should've been Elizabeth Dehner