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Would Into Darkness have been a better film if Khan was not the villain?

i love star trek into darkness warts and all, but i’ve been super split on this for a long time. on the one hand, stripping khan out of harrison makes for a safer film and it would endure a lot less hate by fans. but if the choice is safe over divisive, i kinda prefer divisive.

6 years later, we’re still debating into darkness way more than any other trek film. so fuck it, let harrison be khan and keep the film alive in our hearts and hates another 6 years.
 
My imagined ending: After the closeup of Cumberbatch frozen in his tube, the camera pans across to the next tube - and it contains a computer-generated face of Ricardo Montalban. Roll credits.
This. It should've been Joachim all along, trying to hide his master's identity by masquerading as Khan, trying to protect him.
 
Would Into Darkness have been a better film if Khan was not the villain? Khan is the most iconic villain from the TOS era, but I think it was a mistake to make him the main villain of Into Darkness. Khan already had his time to shine in the best Star Trek movie ever, Wrath of Khan and using Khan again just made people compare Into Darkness with TWOK. I think using a different villain or story element from TOS would have been better than using Khan again.

I was hoping for a Gary Mitchell story. A regular Starfleet officer gains the power of a god and goes on a killing and destructive bent.
 
The interesting thing about Khan, here and in "Space Seed", was his loyalty to his crew. If trek movies really need a superbad supervillain, then a motivation should also be provided. And two times out of three, the reboots used "revenge", combined with "madman", which tends to grow old before the first viewing. Khan's desire to see his crew saved (even if only for use in world conquest schemes) was a welcome addition that would have been much harder to pull of with any other character. Any Trek fan would know of Khan, but most would also be immediately up to speed with this frozen hostages plot twist.

The execution of ST:ID is one thing. The choice of Khan was perhaps predictable, but the use of Khan was inspired here. And the concept of two villains, fighting each other with the hero merely caught in the crossfire, would have been excellent for any movie where the hero is still wet behind the ears. The second outing in the Young Kirk Series therefore was quite ideal, and seeing the hero played for sucker by the two veteran wrongdoers made great dramatic and contextual sense.

Could the movie have been done without Khan? Certainly: Harrison vs. Marcus would have met the caught-between-two-professional-monsters criterion, too. We'd just need some Harrison-specific reason to feel at least halfway sympathetic towards one of the monsters. And the bit where the seeming good guys get the blame for the death of family was already used up in the first movie.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I was hoping for a Gary Mitchell story. A regular Starfleet officer gains the power of a god and goes on a killing and destructive bent.
I was kind of on board for that, but then the stupid comics went an attempted it and it was less than impressive.

Not saying it couldn't have been done well in a film format, but I was unhappy with the comic telling and that diminished my confidence in that story.

Could the movie have been done without Khan? Certainly: Harrison vs. Marcus would have met the caught-between-two-professional-monsters criterion, too. We'd just need some Harrison-specific reason to feel at least halfway sympathetic towards one of the monsters. And the bit where the seeming good guys get the blame for the death of family was already used up in the first movie.
I personally would have approached it like this-Harrison is among several (you can do 72 if you want) genetically engineered super soldiers as a counter to the Klingons, and a compliment to the Vengeance.
 
I was hoping for a Gary Mitchell story. A regular Starfleet officer gains the power of a god and goes on a killing and destructive bent.

When Beyond was first announced I was half expecting something like this based on the title alone.
 
This. It should've been Joachim all along, trying to hide his master's identity by masquerading as Khan, trying to protect him.
Do you remember the shitstorm that erupted when we found out that an actor named Trevor was playing The Mandarin in Iron Man 3? Now, just imagine, given how Trek fandom complains about EVERYTHING, the epic superstorm of a shitstorm that would have flared up if John Harrison was playing Joachim playing Khan. "WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST DO KAHN?!? WHY IS CUMBERPATCH PLAYING JOACHIM? THEY DON'T EVEN LOOK ALIKE AND HE WASN'T BRITISH!!!"

So, short answer, no. Fans would have complained no matter what, and it probably would have made the story even more needlessly convoluted and complicated had Harrison been Kor, Harry Mudd, Trelane, Gary Mitchell or Finnegan.

Also, I should note, I may be somewhat biased, seeing as how Into Darkness is my favorite Trek movie :)
 
Most fandoms go through the "this new thing sucks, the old thing was so much better" cycle every time something new is released, but it's a lot more readily apparent with Star Trek.
 
In my head canon, BC played the role of Joachim, who wanted revenge for the death of Noonien Singh. The twist would be that "Khan" was not killed, but that Joachim was being used by Adm. Marcus to start a war with the Klingons. We would not know the truth, until the last minute, when we see a cryotube marked with Khan's name.
 
Would Into Darkness have been a better film if Khan was not the villain? Khan is the most iconic villain from the TOS era, but I think it was a mistake to make him the main villain of Into Darkness. Khan already had his time to shine in the best Star Trek movie ever, Wrath of Khan and using Khan again just made people compare Into Darkness with TWOK. I think using a different villain or story element from TOS would have been better than using Khan again.
I never thought about it, but that makes a lot of sense. I enjoy parts of ID, but it would be better without Khan shoehorned in. We could have got a different villain from the Eugenics War and been satisfied.
 
Most fandoms go through the "this new thing sucks, the old thing was so much better" cycle every time something new is released, but it's a lot more readily apparent with Star Trek.
Trek fandom, though, is more kneejerk and loud about their objections, though :)
 
Most fandoms go through the "this new thing sucks, the old thing was so much better" cycle every time something new is released, but it's a lot more readily apparent with Star Trek.
I truly believe that startrek.com's forums got shut down because of constant flame wars over into darkness.
 
I truly believe that startrek.com's forums got shut down because of constant flame wars over into darkness.

Wouldn't surprise me at all. I know a few Star Trek groups on Facebook fell apart over similar issues. There's something about social media that turns people into angry, hateful assholes over the most trivial of things.
 
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