The Hunt for the Red Romulan.
Worst tos episode
- Thread starter picards bald cap fitter
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For me, Plato's Stephchildren should be removed from consideration. The reasons, however, have nothing to do with the quality of the episode or the writing.
The fact is, that was the first interracial kiss shown on US network TV. Yes, albeit involuntary, but that is the only way to get it on. That was flat out gutsy. And ground-breaking.
The fact that they had to establish, over and over, the cruelty of the bad guys and the inability of our heroes to resist them, so that the audience (or the network sensors) would accept this kiss says more about the quality of the audience/sensors than the episode.
YMMV, of course.
The fact is, that was the first interracial kiss shown on US network TV. Yes, albeit involuntary, but that is the only way to get it on. That was flat out gutsy. And ground-breaking.
The fact that they had to establish, over and over, the cruelty of the bad guys and the inability of our heroes to resist them, so that the audience (or the network sensors) would accept this kiss says more about the quality of the audience/sensors than the episode.
YMMV, of course.
My mileage varies a lot. First off there's a fair amount of debate on if it is the first such kiss. And oddly none of the other possible contenders are in the form of violation.
What this episode establishes is that such an interaction is wrong. Both by the fact that it is forced and also by the fact that nothing else that these monsters enjoy could be right.
As far as messages, representation, or whatever, this undermines any possible positive that could be taken from it. This is like looking to Silence of the Lambs as an example of inclusivity.
Plus it's not really a kiss at all.
It's "Plato's Stepchildren."
It isn't and cannot possibly be as previously explained.
"Plato's" has always gotten WAY too much credit:
• It wasn't the first televised interracial kiss in the world.
• It wasn't the first interracial kiss on American television.
• It wasn't the first interracial kiss on Star Trek.
• It wasn't even the first interracial kiss on Star Trek that year.
• And it wasn't even a voluntary kiss expressing affection or desire.
Nichelle Nichols and Gene Roddenberry sincerely thought "Plato's" was a big deal in TV history, and who could blame them? Before the mature Internet came along, it was all but impossible to research the question. Now, two clicks and you know more than you wanted. About anything.
What "Plato's" got right was Alexander. That part hits on all cylinders, for writing and performance. The final scene is essentially Star Trek earning forgiveness for the humiliation and sexploitation scenes earlier on.
New category.....
Erase a TOS episode from history but use the guest star in another role that was played be an actor who had already acted on TOS.
Have Dunn play Dr. Sevrin in Way to Eden. Cut out the jam sessions and singing, alter the hippie clothes to simple robes and make him the leader of a "heaven's gate" type cult. He could be from a race that is small in height or a human with dwarfism. Leave intact that the cultists came from influential families and Kirk isn't allowed to lock them up -- that was always a better reason than why Kirk let a half a dozen other nuts wander around the ship!
Terrible episode gone, poor episode improved and Dunn still a TOS actor! LOL.
Erase a TOS episode from history but use the guest star in another role that was played be an actor who had already acted on TOS.
Have Dunn play Dr. Sevrin in Way to Eden. Cut out the jam sessions and singing, alter the hippie clothes to simple robes and make him the leader of a "heaven's gate" type cult. He could be from a race that is small in height or a human with dwarfism. Leave intact that the cultists came from influential families and Kirk isn't allowed to lock them up -- that was always a better reason than why Kirk let a half a dozen other nuts wander around the ship!
Terrible episode gone, poor episode improved and Dunn still a TOS actor! LOL.
I greatly appreciate "Plato's Stepchildren," at least as considered within the larger TOS canon. It serves as a effective counterpoint to many other episodes in which the antagonist is misunderstood (or the Federation misunderstood by them), is principled but misguided, is villainous but possessing a certain nobility, is fallen from grace, etc. (Even the Klingons are, ultimately, given some measure of nobility in Day of the Dove). The Platonians are unprincipled people who are given a power through no effort on their own part (a natural resource they absorb just by eating and drinking, IIRC), who proceed to unquestioningly use that power to amuse themselves to the degradation of others who do not have that power, and who then cravenly beg for a mercy they themselves never extended the minute that they are faced with an even greater power. The moral force and exemplar of the Federation is meaningless to them, only their weapons have any meaning, once those weapons become superior. This sort of person and these sorts of groups exist, alas. TOS as moral tutor is incomplete without the acknowledgment of such people. Being virtuous will, in some situations, get you nowhere and nothing.
The extended degradation of the forced "performances" has a logic to it. Of course Parmen and co would get bored of just dehumanizing Kirk and Spock and would bring the women in, working up new scenarios and pantomimes for a new layer of humiliation. It's awful, but it makes sense.
Liam Sullivan, Barbara Babcock and Michael Dunn are all excellent, and the admonition against lowering oneself to the level of your abuser is a good message, even delivered in a somewhat pat way. McCoy's incensed objection that forcing a Vulcan to express emotions might kill him is a nice offset to the 'why you green blooded' stuff that shows up in other episodes and doesn't make a whole lot of sense coming from a physician on a multi-species crew. Nimoy is solid and has one of the most moving moments in the whole series, when he is dealing with the trauma of what just happened and for once is at a loss as to where to go in his mind to process it. The set designers did a great job creating a plausible-looking Greek patrician domicile with what I would have to imagine was very little money, at this point in the series.
That said, I can understand why many dislike it. The degradation goes on for two full scenes, which means that at a certain point the viewer realizes he or she is taking the abuse of our crew as his or her night's entertainment, just as much as the Platonians. The very straighforward, irredeemable villainy of the Platonians makes them somewhat uninteresting. The power reversal is sudden and immediately resolves the conflict of the episode. That the first (or one of the first; there appears to be a factual dispute) kiss between a Black and caucasian character on TV was nonconsensual is saddening and (for me) is not a credit to the episode.
I think this one is an 'agree to disagree' episode that will hit reasonable people in different ways.
The extended degradation of the forced "performances" has a logic to it. Of course Parmen and co would get bored of just dehumanizing Kirk and Spock and would bring the women in, working up new scenarios and pantomimes for a new layer of humiliation. It's awful, but it makes sense.
Liam Sullivan, Barbara Babcock and Michael Dunn are all excellent, and the admonition against lowering oneself to the level of your abuser is a good message, even delivered in a somewhat pat way. McCoy's incensed objection that forcing a Vulcan to express emotions might kill him is a nice offset to the 'why you green blooded' stuff that shows up in other episodes and doesn't make a whole lot of sense coming from a physician on a multi-species crew. Nimoy is solid and has one of the most moving moments in the whole series, when he is dealing with the trauma of what just happened and for once is at a loss as to where to go in his mind to process it. The set designers did a great job creating a plausible-looking Greek patrician domicile with what I would have to imagine was very little money, at this point in the series.
That said, I can understand why many dislike it. The degradation goes on for two full scenes, which means that at a certain point the viewer realizes he or she is taking the abuse of our crew as his or her night's entertainment, just as much as the Platonians. The very straighforward, irredeemable villainy of the Platonians makes them somewhat uninteresting. The power reversal is sudden and immediately resolves the conflict of the episode. That the first (or one of the first; there appears to be a factual dispute) kiss between a Black and caucasian character on TV was nonconsensual is saddening and (for me) is not a credit to the episode.
I think this one is an 'agree to disagree' episode that will hit reasonable people in different ways.
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Even as a kid who loved superheroes, I hated that Kirk beat Parmen by gaining his powers. The whole "this substance gives folks telekinesis" was garbage because the audience and the writers knew damn well it would never be mentioned again because it's just deus ex machina BS lazy writing.
They beat Apollo using teamwork, psychology and science. This was a big step down -- it's not just the embarrassing debasement of the characters -- it's a lot of things.
They beat Apollo using teamwork, psychology and science. This was a big step down -- it's not just the embarrassing debasement of the characters -- it's a lot of things.
For whatever reason, Plato was first up on my TOS feed the other night, so I decided to watch it (for the first time in probably five years or so). It's extremely effective and very, very, very well acted. The dialogue is also excellent and there are some terrific standout scenes including some strong material for anyone who likes the K/S/M relationship.
The humiliation scenes are awful, but they're supposed to be. The villainous nature of the Platonians would hardly be cemented without it.
Add in the fantastic character of Alexander - and the wonderful performance by Michael Dunn bringing him to life - and this isn't even close to the worst episode of the series.
The humiliation scenes are awful, but they're supposed to be. The villainous nature of the Platonians would hardly be cemented without it.
Add in the fantastic character of Alexander - and the wonderful performance by Michael Dunn bringing him to life - and this isn't even close to the worst episode of the series.
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I'm Tweedledee I'm Tweedledum
Just read the earlier draft version of the script from the other thread.
The writer has Chapel kiss Spock on the lips on the bridge AFTER they return to the ship -- as a joke -- and she teases that Kirk made her do it with his powers.
There is also a line in the script about the Platonians being worse "than kids who poke out the eyes of stray cats."
The episode is by a writer who didn't understand Trek at all.
But late season 3 they were hiring writers who thought kids mutilating domestic pets was still a thing in Roddenberrys vision of the future and that kissing people without consent was only bad if "bad people" were the ones doing it.
So yeah somehow it could have been even worse.
Just read the earlier draft version of the script from the other thread.
The writer has Chapel kiss Spock on the lips on the bridge AFTER they return to the ship -- as a joke -- and she teases that Kirk made her do it with his powers.
There is also a line in the script about the Platonians being worse "than kids who poke out the eyes of stray cats."
The episode is by a writer who didn't understand Trek at all.
But late season 3 they were hiring writers who thought kids mutilating domestic pets was still a thing in Roddenberrys vision of the future and that kissing people without consent was only bad if "bad people" were the ones doing it.
So yeah somehow it could have been even worse.
About as outdated as "Dipping little girls' curls in inkwells. Stealing apples from the neighbours' trees. Tying cans on" (The Squire of Gothos)
That last one either would have been completed with "the bumpers of honeymooners' cars" or "a puppy's tail".
Possibly such things were done on Turkana IV.
It was likely referencing common tropes that would have been familiar to the audience, through other shows or literature, I suppose. Despite being sci-fi and enlightened and "we don't do that anymore", writers still used imagery that would be more prevalent and relevant in other genres - due certainly to their experience writing for more present-day/past-set shows.
@Christopher I don't suppose you could give examples?
@Christopher I don't suppose you could give examples?
The existence of the undermining effect is an excellent point.
It’s probably for that reason “Plato’s Stepchildren” was one of the episodes originally banned here in the UK. If I recall it was because of the sadistic elements. It does go too far as you say; the abuse scenes just go on and on and the plot grinds to a halt. It’s not an episode I enjoy rewatching.
It’s hard to pinpoint a single worst episode. The no-brainier answer back on the day was “Spock’s Brain”. And it is embarrassingly stupid in every way. But at least it’s entertaining in a so-bad-it’s-good kind of way.
I’m tempted to offer up “And the Children Shall Lead” as irredeemably boring, annoying and badly acted. I’m never one to wish harm on another, but I swear, there were points where I wish those awful kids had shared their parents’ fate just so we’d been spared having to watch the ensuing episode. They’re so annoying, charmless and unpleasant to watch.
No-brainer, ha!
Yeah, "Spock's Brain" and "Children" have at one point or other had the honor of being at the bottom of my list. Also, "The Lights of Zetar" and "The Alternative Factor."
I mean, my overall list changes over time. I don't think I have any need to apologize for that, nor should anyone. We change, grow, hopefully get wiser. We reevaluate. We see things we hadn't realized before.
That also underscores just how subjective rankings can be. The idea of an objectively bad (or good) episode is pretty ludicrous.
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