Spoilers World Enough and Time (Grade & Discussion Thread)

[jaime]

I'm sorry...there's only one appropriate response to that:

Meh. It was a discussion at the time, it's the kind of thing I would do if I worked on the original image. It's not just my tinpot theory...I just threw that together on a mobile phone. *shrug* of course, it turned out to be right....McGann did come back for The Night Of The Doctor at that time. Whether that image is there or it's a coincidence...well, flames are good for hiding things in precisely because people see things in those shapes that aren't there. Didn't help I couldn't find the pocket watch promo shot it reminded me of.

Edit: only the black lines were drawn by me. The red circle was whoever posited it before.

 

[Skellington]

I suppose the Time Lords could have put an expiry date on the drums, but maybe they weren't taking any chances. Best guess is that Simm at least is still hearing them, and if they were designed to increase in strength at around the time of his exit from the Time War then they may well be pretty loud. (Utopia takes place a minimum of 17 years after escaping the War for him, as that's how long Yana's assistant had been wth him.)

Presumably the drums had been relatively manageable prior to the Time War, as the Doctor didn't bat an eyelid when Yana mentioned them - so it seems that he was unaware that his best frenemy had suffered from the ailment. But that's probably just an issue with The End Of Time's narrative and not that of Utopia.

 

[jaime]

I suppose the Time Lords could have put an expiry date on the drums, but maybe they weren't taking any chances. Best guess is that Simm at least is still hearing them, and if they were designed to increase in strength at around the time of his exit from the Time War then they may well be pretty loud. (Utopia takes place a minimum of 17 years after escaping the War for him, as that's how long Yana's assistant had been wth him.)

Presumably the drums had been relatively manageable prior to the Time War, as the Doctor didn't bat an eyelid when Yana mentioned them - so it seems that he was unaware that his best frenemy had suffered from the ailment. But that's probably just an issue with The End Of Time's narrative and not that of Utopia.

Gallifreyan Mean Time (the theory as to why these events are always in subjective order) means once the Master had pulled gallifrey back, he won't hear the drums anymore. He's caught up with the event that was rippling back down his timeline...same way Clara shares are only shown echoing backwards down the Doctors timeline, we don't see her rescue future Doctors (explicitly...Capaldi was cast, they could have shown her rescue him, but they didn't) and...now I think of it, given capaldis appearance in the Day of The Doctor, there may be more to the Black Hole with the colony ship on it than meets the eye. Hmm. We also know the destruction of Mondas is not a fixed point in time (the Telosian Cybermen tried to avert its destruction with a time ship in 1985) and the last time earth had a planet parked next door it was gallifrey....wonder if these things will be linked...anyway...I think the drums go back from that specific point in the Masters life, and the drums are no longer a thing except out of habit. Missy barely mentions them...in fact she hasn't, so either she's now moving away from that point again and so can't hear them consciously again, or she can't hear them at all.

 

[Lonemagpie]

I'm sorry...there's only one appropriate response to that:

"Humans, always seeing patterns in things that aren't there," you mean?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

"Humans, always seeing patterns in things that aren't there," you mean?

Yup, that, too. I couldn't think of the quote over the sound of my own laughter.

 

[jaime]

Meh, it might be there, it might be, someone else suggested it was, upon looking I agreed and showed my reasoning. It has yet to be disproved that it is there *shrug* until the original design dude is asked and denies it being there, there is currently reasonable prof that it may well be there.
Lots of people thought x about y with good reason till otherwise came to pass...exhibit (a) Doctor Who since 2005 is not a reboot, reimagining, or anything else beginning re...apart from a return xD

 

[Reverend]

Yeah about 12 seconds on google images easily turns up a much higher resolution version of that image and there's clearly nothing there.

 

[jaime]

Yeah about 12 seconds on google images easily turns up a much higher resolution version of that image and there's clearly nothing there.

I would argue it still looks like something is there. Something makes those shapes. It's not the console room, it's not the other Tardis door, it's not Tens suit, it's not just flames..and, it's the kind of thing many designers would do. I would do it. I am pretty sure most of the various Doctor Who cover designers would do it...in fact..here's another for you. Go look at the Radio Times 1983 five doctors print by Andrew Skilleter. Found it? Now draw a line from Doctor to Doctor, straight lines...now join the first to the then current fifth.
Boom. It's a pentagram, centred on the Time Scoop on the tower of Rassilon...and fain,y inside that time scoop,is the old pertwee era credits vortex thing, or something very like it.
Designers do this stuff all the time.

 

[DS9Continuing]

IMO, you're whole post is seeing things that aren't really there...

Well, art exists in the space between the creator and the observer, so maybe I am and maybe I'm not. But as I said, I didn't even get most of this myself, I had to be told it by others. So I'm not the only one.

I've had discussions about how there shouldn't need to be this kind of stuff to be able to enjoy the stories. How they should be perfectly enjoyable on the usual surface level without having to search for this stuff that may or may not actually be there. And normally they have been, but this year they largely haven't, hence my disappointment. I'm happier believing this stuff was intended and deliberate by the writers, and I enjoy the show more from that perspective.

There's more. For example, the time dilation theme I noted earlier. "The Pilot" shows Bill's relationship, getting to know the Doctor, takes place over months, possibly longer (of which the viewer only sees snippets). Here Bill's relationship with the person who turns out to be the Master develops in the same way - over the course of months, if not years (of which the viewer only sees snippets). It is only after all this time has passed of them getting to know each other that their 'adventure' finally begins. There's no way that's accidental.

There's another thing where the Doctor has had this habit of trying to make some kind of grand gesture, some big sacrificial act - appropriate if, as many suspect, he already knows his regeneration has begun. He sacrificed his own oxygen to save Bill. He let himself read the Veritas knowing it kills people. He was willing to let the lab explode with him inside. He tried to be the one to override the Monks' programming even if it led to brain damage. He tried to be the one to protect the world from the Eaters of Light. And of course the greatest achievement - if he can convert the Master into a good person, what a thing to have achieved before he goes! But now his eagerness to achieve that led to the horrible situation in which Bill now finds herself - and he will have to make some grand sacrifice to save her, something that will undoubtedly lead to his regeneration.

.

 

[jaime]

Well, art exists in the space between the creator and the observer, so maybe I am and maybe I'm not. But as I said, I didn't even get most of this myself, I had to be told it by others. So I'm not the only one.

I've had discussions about how there shouldn't need to be this kind of stuff to be able to enjoy the stories. How they should be perfectly enjoyable on the usual surface level without having to search for this stuff that may or may not actually be there. And normally they have been, but this year they largely haven't, hence my disappointment. I'm happier believing this stuff was intended and deliberate by the writers, and I enjoy the show more from that perspective.

There's more. For example, the time dilation theme I noted earlier. "The Pilot" shows Bill's relationship, getting to know the Doctor, takes place over months, possibly longer (of which the view only sees snippets). Here Bill's relationship with the person who turns out to be the Master develops in the same way - over the course of months, if not years (of which the viewer only sees snippets). It is only after all this time has passed of them getting to know each other that their 'adventure' finally begins. There's no way that's accidental.

There's another thing where the Doctor has had this habit of trying to make some kind of grand gesture, some big sacrificial act - appropriate if, as many suspect, he already knows his regeneration has begun. He sacrificed his own oxygen to save Bill. He let himself read the Veritas knowing it kills people. He was willing to let the lab explode with him inside. He tried to be the one to override the Monks' programming even if it led to brain damage. He tried to be the one to protect the world from the Eaters of Light. And of course the greatest achievement - if he can convert the Master into a good person, what a thing to have achieved before he goes! But now his eagerness to achieve that led to the horrible situation in which Bill now finds herself - and he will have to make some grand sacrifice to save her, something that will undoubtedly lead to his regeneration.

.

He's been borderline suicidal all season..just like Clara was. And all of those sacrifices will be in vain, because Bill is now gone anyway. Maybe the thing that turns Missy won't be the Doctor. Maybe it will be the realisation that Bill, who she knows, who she has saved, who she has some form of relationship...was already killed by her previous self, and she just never knew because of the usual meeting yourself amnesia. Who knows, maybe they will blinovitch limitation boom the cybermen away.

 

[Reverend]

Well, art exists in the space between the creator and the observer, so maybe I am and maybe I'm not. But as I said, I didn't even get most of this myself, I had to be told it by others. So I'm not the only one.

There's nothing subjective about a pixel. It's either there, or it's not. Computers are usually very fussy about such things and in this case, they are objectively and demonstrably absent.

 

[jaime]

There's nothing subjective about a pixel. It's either there, or it's not. Computers are usually very fussy about such things and in this case, they are objectively and demonstrably absent.

God help us if you ever discover stenography.
Artist can hide all kinds of stuff, pixels or not involved. Hiding it really really well is part of the trick. Writers sometimes pull the same shtick....this episode we are discussing does it. It's sort of the point.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

We also know the destruction of Mondas is not a fixed point in time (the Telosian Cybermen tried to avert its destruction with a time ship in 1985)

Even if it was a "fixed point in time™", there's no guarantee the Cybermen wouldn't still try to change those events.

Does being fixed absolutely mean failure, or just that it's a really bad idea, with universe ending paradoxes and cats & dogs living together, etc.?

 

[jaime]

Even if it was a "fixed point in time™", there's no guarantee the Cybermen wouldn't still try to change those events.

Does being fixed absolutely mean failure, or just that it's a really bad idea, with universe ending paradoxes and cats & dogs living together, etc.?

I would go with b and a hint of a as answer based on what's been shown on screen.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I would go with b and a hint of a as answer based on what's been shown on screen.

I'm thinking mainly of The Wedding Of River Song as far as b) goes.

 

[Reverend]

God help us if you ever discover stenography.
Artist can hide all kinds of stuff, pixels or not involved. Hiding it really really well is part of the trick. Writers sometimes pull the same shtick....this episode we are discussing does it. It's sort of the point.

Yes, yes, of course and that big fluffy thing in the sky isn't a cloud at all, it's obviously a giant bunny rabbit!

I'm thinking mainly of The Wedding Of River Song as far as b) goes.

Well we also saw time freak out when Rose crossed her own timeline to save her father. Clearly some things cannot be changed without breaking, or at least damaging the fabric of reality.
On the other hand, as mentioned earlier in the thread The Master once jury-rigged the TARDIS to maintain a paradox, so there are also ways around even massive scale fixed points, but the consequences are damn near catastrophic. Not the sort of thing the Doctor would go in for.

 

[cultcross]

Finally a great episode this season, finally a great episode for Capaldi, and finally a use of Missy that was genuinely entertaining, all combined together with a cool time dilation idea (SG-1's A Matter of Time writ very large, although as is paid lip service in that episode, by the time that time dilation effects were that noticeable, there's no way that ship would survive). The old Cybermen were very creepy and far scarier than their modern counterparts, and Simm was great in disguise with some really funny lines. Loved the visuals, the slow reveals, and the way they set up the two time frames running simultaneously.

Why couldn't we have had a season of this quality? Anyway, happy to see it now. Lots for the finale to live up to.

 

[The Wormhole]

https://twitter.com/jcomm9526/status/387620592385806336

I swear, half the time people claim they spot Paul McGann, I feel like I'm in that Klingon monastery from TNG Rightful Heir, only instead of "I see Kahless" it's "I see Paul McGann" that gets proclaimed by the guys staring into the fire. And I'm Worf not getting it at all.

 

[Lonemagpie]

"There Are Four McGanns!"

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

"There Are Four McGanns!"

Paul, Joe, Mark and Stephen