Worfs murderous rampages.

[The_Baroness]

I was thinking.

Worf tried to kill Kurn, at the latters request and got a right rollocking from Sisko.

When he actually offed Gowron, the actual leader of the Klingon Empire, Benny didnt even bat an eyelid.

Other than the obvious "the writers forgot" what could be the in universe explanation for Siskos lack of interest for Gowrons death by one of his officers on the station.

Or was it just that Sisko figured Gowrons a douche?

 

[RoJoHen]

Yeah, Sisko probably should have made a much bigger deal about Gowron. Even if Sisko wanted Gowron out of the picture, having one of his officers murder him probably wasn't the ideal situation. However, they're Klingons, and that's just how Klingons operate sometimes.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Maybe Sisko just took awhile to learn about Klingon culture.

Just as Picard had no right to reprimand Worf for killing Duras, Sisko should have kept his mouth shut about Kurn. The thing with Gowron was handled correctly, of course.

In all three of these cases, it was a ritual carried out under Klingon law and tradition, and involved only Klingons. Worf's COs had no right to interfere.

 

[Ithekro]

Sisko basically ordered Worf to handle the Gowron problem. He handled it. War is back on track. Sisko is in a better mood.

This is the Sisko that sanctioned Garak to bring the Romulans into the war.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

There's a good chance the meeting room was Klingon diplomatic space akin to an embassy. Not being Bajoran/Federation space, it fulfilled one of Siskos primary objections.

 

[Enabran]

Maybe Sisko just took awhile to learn about Klingon culture.

Just as Picard had no right to reprimand Worf for killing Duras, Sisko should have kept his mouth shut about Kurn. The thing with Gowron was handled correctly, of course.

In all three of these cases, it was a ritual carried out under Klingon law and tradition, and involved only Klingons. Worf's COs had no right to interfere.

I agree. I always feel disappointed when I watch that episode and see how Sisko does not respect the ritual between Worf and Kurn. I think having Kurn basically become brainwashed and lose his whole life's experiences and knowledge does not seem like a better solution than granting him an honorable death.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There's a good chance the meeting room was Klingon diplomatic space akin to an embassy. Not being Bajoran/Federation space, it fulfilled one of Siskos primary objections.

Who cares what 'space' it's in? Like I said, all of the situations being discussed here involved only Klingons, were consensual among said Klingons, and were carried out under Klingon law. Therefore, it only matters what Klingons think of them.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^Such vitriol for just a suggestion. Nevertheless,

At the moment, I don't give a damn about Klingon beliefs, rituals or custom. Now I have given you both a lot of leeway when it comes to following Klingon traditions, but in case you haven't noticed, this is not a Klingon station, and those are not Klingon uniforms you're wearing. There is a limit to how far I'll go to accommodate cultural diversity among my officers and you've just reached it. When your brother is released from the infirmary, you better find another way to settle your family problems. Is that clear?

Perhaps that was merely rhetorical, but sovereignty may well have made this a different matter.

 

[RoJoHen]

There's a good chance the meeting room was Klingon diplomatic space akin to an embassy. Not being Bajoran/Federation space, it fulfilled one of Siskos primary objections.

Who cares what 'space' it's in? Like I said, all of the situations being discussed here involved only Klingons, were consensual among said Klingons, and were carried out under Klingon law. Therefore, it only matters what Klingons think of them.

Except that Worf is a Starfleet officer and still needs to abide by Federation law.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ And he did. In what way is it a violation of Federation law for Worf to *observe* Klingon law? I hate to keep bringing this up, but in all of these instances, only Klingons were involved.

If the Federation has so little regard for the cultures and laws of the individual races in it (and of its allies), then that's a sad thing indeed.

 

[Ithekro]

Kurn was being employed by Bajor and if I recall was in a Bajoran uniform.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Okay, I'll grant that. Sisko might have made that more clear, though.

 

[Karzak]

Maybe Sisko just took awhile to learn about Klingon culture.

Just as Picard had no right to reprimand Worf for killing Duras, Sisko should have kept his mouth shut about Kurn. The thing with Gowron was handled correctly, of course.

In all three of these cases, it was a ritual carried out under Klingon law and tradition, and involved only Klingons. Worf's COs had no right to interfere.

Uh, Picard had every right to reprimand Worf.

Worf was a Starfleet officer und Picard's command who left the ship without permission for personal reasons that led to the murder of a foreign dignitary, all while still wearing his Starfleet uniform.

From the Klingon perspective, it's kosher. From the human, Starfleet perspective, it's six kinds of fucked up. Regardless of Klingon tradition, Worf violated his oath as a Starfleet officer by doing so.... hence Picard's reprimand of him.

Someone in another thread made this comment, which is perfectly applicable here -- "It's the military, not Sunday brunch."

As for Kurn, things were obviously a lot less strict on DS9. It's a bigger place and not quite as tightly knit or claustrophobic as a starship community of 1,000 would be.

And Gowron was killed during wartime. There are a lot of things people do during war that get a free pass (especially if it works out for your side) that they'd never try, do, or be exonerated for during peacetime. (Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, In The Pale Moonlight, Kira and Odo in the six-episode arc at the beginning of season 6, et al).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

From the Klingon perspective, it's kosher.

Exactly. So who cares what anyone else thinks? The Klingon government recognizes that Worf followed all necessary traditions and laws, and does NOT believe that Worf abused his status as a Starfleet officer in the process, so....what's the problem?

 

[Ithekro]

The Klingons would not care about Worf's Starfleet obligations, that's Picard and Sisko's areas. All that means is that Worf can't be charged with murder. He can be charged with dereliction of duty.

In the case of Kurn, while it is Klingon customs, Worf is operating under Starfleet regulations and Kurn under Bajoran law due to location and their jobs.

For Gowron, Sisko ordered Worf to deal with the problem before Gowron's issues with Martok got the whole Alpha Quadrant overrun by the Dominion. When Martok refused to challange Gowron due to his loyality to the Empire, Worf took up the challange for the good of the Empire, and earned himself the mantle of Chancellor of the High Council...until he handed off to the head of his house, due to his own loyalty, and his own admission that he does not know Klingons well enough to lead them. (Jadzia would have been proud of him).

 

[Grendelsbayne]

^ And he did. In what way is it a violation of Federation law for Worf to *observe* Klingon law? I hate to keep bringing this up, but in all of these instances, only Klingons were involved.

If the Federation has so little regard for the cultures and laws of the individual races in it (and of its allies), then that's a sad thing indeed.

Just because the United States respects the laws of other countries, it doesn't mean visitors get to apply their own drinking age or traffic regulations. Ethnicity doesn't matter - location does. If every species was allowed to bring their own laws onto the station, it would be completely impossible to govern.

What happened with Gowron was almost certainly considered an internal klingon matter of the highest order - even if the Klingons didn't have some kind of official diplomatic claim at that point, it would probably have been considered a terrible insult for the Federation to object. Not to mention bad for morale.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

From Sisko's perspective, one was ritualized murder and one was a necessary step to protect the AQ.

From a legal perspective, one was murder and the other was self defense. And you could argue Embassy rules apply, but really, Sisko was not thinking about the law.

 

[Karzak]

From the Klingon perspective, it's kosher.

Exactly. So who cares what anyone else thinks? The Klingon government recognizes that Worf followed all necessary traditions and laws, and does NOT believe that Worf abused his status as a Starfleet officer in the process, so....what's the problem?

What part of Picard's reaction was so difficult to understand?

PICARD
The Enterprise crew currently
includes representatives from
thirteen planets, Mister Worf.
They each have their individual
beliefs and values and I respect
them all. But every member of
the crew has chosen to serve
Starfleet. If anyone cannot
perform his duties because of the
demands of his society, he must
resign.

...meaning beaming on over to an ally's ship and slashing their captain down the middle like a filet ain't exactly copasetic with what Starfleet is about.

It's not like Worf was demoted or expelled from Starfleet. He didn't go to jail or stand trial in a court-martial. Even Wesley had to repeat a year at the Academy because of his shenanigans getting a fellow cadet killed. Riker barely had any punishment except sweating it out in the brig for a while after being discovered to have been a part of the Pegasus disaster.

When you join a military or paramilitary organization, you agree to abide by the rules of conduct in that organization. Worf clearly violated those rules, even if that violation was still within the boundary of his personal cultural belief system.

 

[MacLeod]

I was thinking.

Worf tried to kill Kurn, at the latters request and got a right rollocking from Sisko.

When he actually offed Gowron, the actual leader of the Klingon Empire, Benny didnt even bat an eyelid.

Other than the obvious "the writers forgot" what could be the in universe explanation for Siskos lack of interest for Gowrons death by one of his officers on the station.

Or was it just that Sisko figured Gowrons a douche?

Weren't both of those events within Klingon customs/laws etc? So it isn't exactly murder at least according to Klingon customs/laws.


As for different reactions from Picard and Sisko, why is that so suprising as we can react differently to one another.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

When you join a military or paramilitary organization, you agree to abide by the rules of conduct in that organization. Worf clearly violated those rules, even if that violation was still within the boundary of his personal cultural belief system.

Again: HOW did Worf violate Starfleet regs?

In all three of these instances, Worf did not challenge a fellow Starfleet officer or Federation citizen. If he'd done that, I could understand why Starfleet would be concerned, because Starfleet crewmembers just don't duel each other whenever they feel like it. But that's not the issue here. Worf's opponents were all Klingons. Starfleet and the Federation were completely irrelevant in all of these examples. ALL of them were internal Klingon matters. (Remember, Worf does not stop being a Klingon just because he has joined Starfleet.)

Indeed, it would be a violation of the Prime Directive for the Federation to interfere...