Worf, hmm? What is he good for? Absolutely nothing?

[sonak]

I'm in the "Worf is better as a TNG character" camp.


He stood out there more, as he had a very different perspective from all the other characters. On DS9, there were a lot more characters with the "outsider" perspective(Odo, Quark, Kira, and even more if you include semi-regulars like Garak or Rom)

Worf just seemed to fade into the background, largely wasted on DS9, until the Jadzia relationship which I wasn't a big fan of.


Further, Worf becomes a much grumpier, humorless, stick-in-the-mud on DS9 than he ever was on TNG.

On TNG, he was sort of the "straight-man" in on the joke. On DS9, he was often just the angry guy.

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

Funny, some people think Worf was an "angry guy" on TNG moreso than DS9. But they do agree that Worf is better on TNG. I thought he was about the same in both shows. He does have good quotes from both, but the exploration of his character seemed about the same from what I recall.

 

[T'Girl]

about how important honour, tradition, and family are to him?

Strange statement given his relationship with Alexander, Worf surely take the Trek Award for worst father figure ever.

At least Sarek waited until Spock was an adult before kicking him to the curb.

He was more quotable than anyone else.

If you were any other man I would kill you. (now step out of my path bitch)

 

[TheLobes]

I think part of the problem may be that he's the only member of the main characters (I am not including Ezri in this) who doesnt really have a stable perspective or set of values.

I find that statement a bit bewildering. Worf doesn't have a "stable perspective or set of values" after the endless conversations he had with others on TNG and DS9 about how important honour, tradition, and family are to him? On the contrary, I think he had one of the most consistent perspectives and some of the most clearly defined values.

To me 'honour' is just a word that Klingon's use interchangably for pretty much everything. You say he has a stable set of values about family, and yet he doesnt seem to give a **** about Alexander, and he didnt seem to think about how his actions would affect his brother. Then in 'Change of Heart' (in my top 5 worst episodes), he put his own feelings in front of the lives of the millions of people fighting the Dominion. It always seems to me that Worf was all talk and no action, with odd exceptions. Even if he wasnt, I didnt feel there was enough in the programme to show thee values of his, because the importance of tradition and honour etc were already much better established as a fundamental part of Kira's character. Again, I dont necessarily hate Worf, I just never really noticed him in many positive ways.

As to people who argue about whether Worf was better in TNG of DS9,it has to be admitted that TNG and DS9 and totally different shows. DS9 was largely character driven, whereas TNG was largely plot driven, and the characters did not need to be quite as subtle as the ones in DS9. I always felt this was a problem with Worf, he might not have been quite as 'explored' in TNG, but he wasnt meant to be, and I felt that he was evolved quite clumsily in DS9, to the point where he mostly felt human.

In fact, I think thats my main problem with Worf on DS9, he seemed to go from being a Klingon to being a human. I think this happened a lot to the 'aliens' in DS9, and I feel the shows believability suffered because of it.

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

So you are saying that aliens on the show tend to become more like humans in their values?

From the standpoint of humans, isn't that a good thing? Without our forcing them, they are becoming more like us! Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery or something like that?

 

[Green Shirt]

He was more quotable than anyone else.

But experience told me its not a good thing to yell "Perhaps today is a good day to die!" in the midst of a particularly rough night dealing with my fellow numbnuts in the Post Office.

 

[TheLobes]

So you are saying that aliens on the show tend to become more like humans in their values?

From the standpoint of humans, isn't that a good thing? Without our forcing them, they are becoming more like us! Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery or something like that?

Something I enjoy about Trek, and just sci-fi in general, is that it considers viewpoints different from our own. This is actually one of the fundamental parts of art in general. The idea that the Ferengi would give up all the practices we think of as evil, and start to become 'like us' is just incredibly stupid, and it destroys them as an interesting species. In the first episode with the Jem Hadar, Quark talks about how Ferengi society might be questionable from a human perspective, but that its never fallen into the terrible things that humans have done in the past.

The fact that the Klingons, Trill, Ferengi and even borg started becoming more like us was a major part of what went wrong in trek. I completely disagree with your opinion that 'its a good thing', because that implies that the human point of view is the best one out there, with all other aliens simply being inferior. Thats not really what trek, sci-fi, or any good work of art should be about.

 

[Deckerd]

The fact that the Klingons, Trill, Ferengi and even borg started becoming more like us was a major part of what went wrong in trek. I completely disagree with your opinion that 'its a good thing', because that implies that the human point of view is the best one out there, with all other aliens simply being inferior. Thats not really what trek, sci-fi, or any good work of art should be about.

On the other hand the show was written by humans, acted by humans and designed for a human audience. With those constraints the problem of setting an alien character as consistently alien over many seasons is pretty nigh impossible, which is why no long running show has ever attempted it.

 

[TheLobes]

The fact that the Klingons, Trill, Ferengi and even borg started becoming more like us was a major part of what went wrong in trek. I completely disagree with your opinion that 'its a good thing', because that implies that the human point of view is the best one out there, with all other aliens simply being inferior. Thats not really what trek, sci-fi, or any good work of art should be about.

On the other hand the show was written by humans, acted by humans and designed for a human audience. With those constraints the problem of setting an alien character as consistently alien over many seasons is pretty nigh impossible, which is why no long running show has ever attempted it.

What? Heres how hard it is not to change the Ferengi: 'Dont change the ferengi'.

Just dont change them in those last few episodes, maybe they could do something like donate a huge amount of money or resources to the federation for the dominion war, because they would profit by the federation winning. That would have shown them in a good light, but not totally screwed them up as an idea.

Spock, up until the 2009 film, was consistenly portrayed as alien, and hes probably the most popular trek character of all time.

 

[Deckerd]

Spock was just a human with pointy ears and a rather pompous form of address. Babylon 5 was the only show which actually made a credible attempt to make some aliens seem very alien but few of the principals were really anything beyond good makeup and excellent dialogue. The ancients were good but even Kosh tended to be a foil to show how goshdarn terrific Sheridan was.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

He was an attempt to boost ratings by bringing a little piece of TNG over to DS9. He failed.

Oh so true. Worf was a shmuck. He had no sense of humour, he was uptight (to quote Torchwood's Owen, even the stick up his arse had a stick up its arse), he lacked even the most basic social skills, he judged everyone by his own standards and was too much of a coward to actually apologise for his terrible behaviour - and then, he had the nerve to actually use the "I'm a Klingon, that's how we are" excuse. Gna.

God, I hate Klingons. They don't even know what the word "honour" means. Worf is the worst of all; he isn't just self-righteous and -absorbed, he believes everyone should be an uptight lame boring loser like him. And he can't just let it go and leave people alone, too. No, his view of the universe is THE TRUTH, and everyone else is wrong. Jeez.

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

I tend to like characters who are gruff, curt, and no-nonsense. For some reason...

 

[CommanderRaytas]

If he left people alone, all would be fine. What bugs me the most is that he isn't just insufferable, he's judgmental, too. He needs a hobby.

 

[TheLobes]

I tend to like characters who are gruff, curt, and no-nonsense. For some reason...

He marred Jadzia Dax, im pretty sure that rules out 'no nonsense'!

 

[flemm]

Worf failed as a ratings stunt, but not as an addition to the DS9 cast of characters. If nothing else, the addition of the Klingon plot threads increased the scope of the show to include the entirety of the alpha quadrant. In addition, the Klingon invasion of Cardassia set the stage for Dukat's pact with the Dominion, thus the entire shape of the later seasons is defined by the events of The Way of the Warrior.

Who knows how the Dominion War would have played out had Worf never joined the show, but it's unlikely that it would have been as epic if the Dominion had no foothold in the alpha quadrant, not to mention that some of the best plotlines of the later seasons (the Romulans joining the war, Kira going to Cardassia, etc.) would have been impossible or radically different had the Klingon involvement never occurred. So, as far as the big picture is concerned, Worf's arrival had a profound impact: it forced the writers to up the ante and increase the scale of the show.

Speaking specifically about his interactions with the other characters, Worf fit right in on DS9, perhaps a little too well in that he stood out more on TNG, where he was a bit of a rebel and a relatively complex character compared to most of the crew. On DS9, among a whole crowd of exiles, flawed characters and misfits, he often came across as a bit uptight and one-dimensional. There are still a lot of great Worf moments on DS9, though, and he actually gets to kick some ass rather than taking the fall for the threat of the week, as was often the case on TNG (The Worf Effect).

Also, if anything, Worf's character arc on DS9 is that he goes from being conflicted about his Klingon and Starfleet identites (as was often the case on TNG) to being more of a full-time Klingon who fully embraces that side of his heritage and is less inhibited because of it. He gets in touch with his "Klingon heart," "What I say now, I say as a member of the House of Martok, NOT as a starfleet officer," he blows up the Dominion shipyards to honor Jadzia, we see him more and more on the bridge of the Rotarrin (sp?) in full Klingon garb, he leaves starfleet at the end of the show, etc.

Overall, I think Worf's best material is split pretty evenly between TNG and DS9, though the Klingon honor spiel was a lot fresher when it was first explored on TNG. Ron Moore doesn't really get around to deconstructing it until Tacking into the Wind, and I do think that it would have been potentially effective to take that more cynical angle on Klingon culture earlier on.

Also, no Worf = no Martok as a major recurring character (probably), so that's another factor to consider, as Martok is awesome.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Worf is the worst of all; he isn't just self-righteous and -absorbed, he believes everyone should be an uptight lame boring loser like him. And he can't just let it go and leave people alone, too. No, his view of the universe is THE TRUTH, and everyone else is wrong. Jeez.

I actually felt similarly about him when watching the episode "Let He Who Is Without Sin..., but not in other episodes. He spends much of the episode bitching at Jadzia for having fun and refusing to join in the fun with her (or even take off his uniform while on vacation, which REALLY drove me up the wall).

Then he joined a group of one of the worst stereotypes of fundamentalists I've ever seen. He really did come across as an insufferable, overly judgmental, humorless 'schmuck' in that one. I don't think he was that annoying most of the time, though. That episode just highlighted the worst in him. He did soften up and become a little more open-minded later due to his marriage to Jadzia. People may not like that pairing, but there's a least one positive to come out of it.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Let He Who Is Without Sin... brings out the absolute worst in all the characters. For proof, just watch SFDebris' review of it.

 

[indolover]

Worf rocked on TNG, but in DS9 was dull, dour and boring. The character was always a stoical kind of guy, but it was his one-liners and comically written scenes that I liked best. Kind of like:

"Well, Mr. Worf. What do you think?
"Good tea, nice house."

or

"The Cardassians have no honour. I do not trust them."
"They're our allies now Mr. Worf, we have to trust them."
"Trust is earned, not given away!"

 

[Tulaberry whine]

The fact that the Klingons, Trill, Ferengi and even borg started becoming more like us was a major part of what went wrong in trek. I completely disagree with your opinion that 'its a good thing', because that implies that the human point of view is the best one out there, with all other aliens simply being inferior. Thats not really what trek, sci-fi, or any good work of art should be about.

On the other hand the show was written by humans, acted by humans and designed for a human audience. With those constraints the problem of setting an alien character as consistently alien over many seasons is pretty nigh impossible, which is why no long running show has ever attempted it.

What? Heres how hard it is not to change the Ferengi: 'Dont change the ferengi'.

Just dont change them in those last few episodes, maybe they could do something like donate a huge amount of money or resources to the federation for the dominion war, because they would profit by the federation winning.

A donation? That sounds like riveting television!

Seriously, I don't think the Ferengi are a great example of your complaint seeing of all the aliens in Trek they had the most clearly identifiably human traits from the outset.

More importantly, what's the point of a television show like DS9 if characters and by extension the societies they live in don't change? Why bother tuning in in the first place?

Fundamentally, I have a problem with the idea there's a 'human point of view' that DS9 pushed - the show you're talking about was written by a group of middle class white guys living in the richest country on the planet and it reflected their politics, values and beliefs, etc, and it's a mistake to think these are somehow universal human qualities just because the human characters on their sci fi show shared them.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Worf is the worst of all; he isn't just self-righteous and -absorbed, he believes everyone should be an uptight lame boring loser like him. And he can't just let it go and leave people alone, too. No, his view of the universe is THE TRUTH, and everyone else is wrong. Jeez.

I actually felt similarly about him when watching the episode "Let He Who Is Without Sin..., but not in other episodes. He spends much of the episode bitching at Jadzia for having fun and refusing to join in the fun with her (or even take off his uniform while on vacation, which REALLY drove me up the wall).

Then he joined a group of one of the worst stereotypes of fundamentalists I've ever seen. He really did come across as an insufferable, overly judgmental, humorless 'schmuck' in that one. I don't think he was that annoying most of the time, though. That episode just highlighted the worst in him. He did soften up and become a little more open-minded later due to his marriage to Jadzia. People may not like that pairing, but there's a least one positive to come out of it.

I guess I never forgave him for that episode- I mean, he never apologised, not really, and after Jadzia forgives him, all is well. Honestly, I would have sued his Klingon butt all the way back to Minsk.

He keeps being judgmental for the rest of the show, too, and lashes out at people for no reason at all. The way he talks about and treats Bashir makes me so angry I could bitch-slap him into unconsciousness. He just seems to believe he has the right to ruin everybody's good time, just because he is unable to pull the famous stick out.

I dislike all DS9 Klingons for being so dumb and smelly and one-sided and cliched, but at they know how to party- all except for the stuck-up loser, that is.

I suppose my biggest beef with Worf is that he is so terribly single-minded and has a tendency to stick his ugly nose where it doesn't belong. Nobody wants his opinion, and yet he keeps bullying people into respecting it.