Worf: Absentee father.

[DS9 Gal AZ]

I get that they wanted to age Alexander, but (contrary to what some might think) DS9 was not a soap opera. On soaps, it is commonly accepted by viewers that children are rapidly aged so they can be featured in storylines. In fact, it's so common that it has an acronym, SORAS (Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome). But DS9 is not a soap, it's a sci-fi drama. What's frustrating is that the sci-fi element basically gives the show a built-in excuse to make Alexander appear older than a normally aging human child. It's perfectly reasonable to assume the rate at which children reach adulthood would vary in alien species. I mean, look at the Jem'Hadar, they reach maturity in a matter of weeks! All we would need would be Worf looking a picture of his son as a child, and then when we meet him, someone remarks on how fast he grew, and Worf could explain that Klingon children grow much faster than human ones, and so are considered adults at an earlier age. As it was, the writers just made themselves look stupid by having him show up as an adult.

But as for Worf as a father, well, he was a pretty neglectful one. This is especially glaring when you compare Worf/Alexander to Sisko/Jake. Sisko was almost too involved in his son's life, while Worf was so removed he didn't even know his son was serving on a Klingon ship. The whole thing with Alexander really made Worf look bad, but then I was never a big fan of Worf to begin with...

 

[Takeru]

All we would need would be Worf looking a picture of his son as a child, and then when we meet him, someone remarks on how fast he grew, and Worf could explain that Klingon children grow much faster than human ones, and so are considered adults at an earlier age.

We don't need that! I liked that Alexanders growth was never adressed, too many shows assume their audience is stupid and needs an explanation for everything.

 

[DanCPA]

Riker's dad was definitely a huge jerk.

You lost me here. Riker's dad didn't know how to be a parent, true. But it seemed to me as if he loved Will very much.

 

[Shatnertage]

Riker and his dad grew apart in Riker's adolescence, after his mother died. I thought they did a good job of explaining that.

Sarek and Spock, IIRC, grew apart when Spock was more or less an adult, with his decision to join Starfleet.

Worf just seemed to really not like having Alexander around from the get-go, which is understandable, given that kids aren't easy to raise, but something you get past once you realize that you're responsible for this kid. It doesn't seem very honorable. Most of the time he treated Alexander like he was a pet cat he had to babysit for the weekend.

To be fair, LOST is probably the only show where more characters had daddy issues than TNG. Even Picard felt he had let his father down, on some level.

 

[indolover]

The nutty thing is, at the end of TNG Worf was OKAY with Alexander not wanting to be a Klingon warrior! "Firstborn" and all that. He decided it DIDN'T MATTER to him that Alexander would choose his own path. Then in DS9 they pretty much forgot that episode despite how important it was to their relationship, had him basically abandon Alexander and then have Alexander just decide he wanted to be a warrior after all when nothing beforehand indicated that's what he wanted.

Guinan told Worf once that Alexander would eventually turn to Klingon culture. Maybe she was proved right, and Alexander as a child felt differently.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

What I don't get is why Worf's sucky fathering wasn't an outrage to Jadzia. She had already had plenty of parenting experience in her past Dax lives, she would not really have been able to dismiss his abandonment of Alexander.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Jadzia couldn't even get her head around the concept of marriage...I don't think she gave a damn.

 

[Thestral]

I've always figured Alexander was so much of a painful reminder of K'Ehleyr that Worf couldn't really handle Alex, and so in his emotional stuntedness shipped him off since he couldn't deal with the boy. Definitely not a good father; though, with the help of Troi (a big part of my theory for why they got together) he was doing somewhat better.

I agree with the idiocy of the one-drop rule in Trek. Each child should choose individually who they are going to be. The closest we ever got to that was--again--ironically, Tora Ziyal. Which is the height of irony considering her father was the worst kind of bigot.

Actually, we did get another - Rugal. Too bad his species was deemed more important than his wishes.

Because DS9 made pretty much the WORST Klingon episodes ever, of any Trek series, consistently. DS9 showed a remarkable lack of regard for what Klingon culture both is and holds dear. I love DS9 as a whole, but as far as anything they did with Klingon culture... IMO, it was absolute garbage and crap.

Nonsense. General Martok will kill you where you stand. Then Dahar Master Kor will drink you under the table (or kill you with the help of his buddies Kang and Koloth, whichever seems better).

Jadzia couldn't even get her head around the concept of marriage...I don't think she gave a damn.

She married the big oaf, didn't she? She understood marriage just fine.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Actually, we did get another - Rugal. Too bad his species was deemed more important than his wishes.

Ultimately, the person who committed a crime in that case was Gul Dukat, by separating Rugal from his real father--and the abuse charges against Proka Migdal were never dealt with conclusively one way or the other in the episode. Had that been the case that they were (as Una McCormack's novel The Neverending Sacrifice proposes) and that Proka was not in any way abusive, then I would accept your statement. However, if Proka was in any way abusive, then it was in his best interests to get him out of that situation and return him to his true father.

Since we never saw any CLEAR dismissal of the charges in that episode, I consider it an open issue.

Now, as a concession I offered in a previous debate, maybe if there were concerns about the nature of the Cardassian Union and the situation he would be going into even if Pa'Dar was the best parent in terms of his ability and his nature as a person, Pa'Dar could have been offered a chance to move into Bajoran space (which would include DS9) to raise his son. This would mean Pa'Dar would have to exile himself, but I actually think there's a chance Pa'Dar would've accepted.

Jadzia couldn't even get her head around the concept of marriage...I don't think she gave a damn.

She married the big oaf, didn't she? She understood marriage just fine.

She only married him after ridiculing everything about his beliefs and even the idea of monogamy itself.

 

[Thestral]

Actually, we did get another - Rugal. Too bad his species was deemed more important than his wishes.

Ultimately, the person who committed a crime in that case was Gul Dukat, by separating Rugal from his real father--and the abuse charges against Proka Migdal were never dealt with conclusively one way or the other in the episode. Had that been the case that they were (as Una McCormack's novel The Neverending Sacrifice proposes) and that Proka was not in any way abusive, then I would accept your statement. However, if Proka was in any way abusive, then it was in his best interests to get him out of that situation and return him to his true father.

Since we never saw any CLEAR dismissal of the charges in that episode, I consider it an open issue.

Now, as a concession I offered in a previous debate, maybe if there were concerns about the nature of the Cardassian Union and the situation he would be going into even if Pa'Dar was the best parent in terms of his ability and his nature as a person, Pa'Dar could have been offered a chance to move into Bajoran space (which would include DS9) to raise his son. This would mean Pa'Dar would have to exile himself, but I actually think there's a chance Pa'Dar would've accepted.

Personally I think that if Proka was in any way abusive, it was in Rugal's best interests to find him a good home - whether that was with Pa'Dar or not. He clearly didn't want to return to Cardassia, and if you're going to be consistent that children should be allowed to choose individually, you have to respect Rugal's wishes.

I think that's a fair concession about Pa'Dar moving (back) to Bajor though (although can you imagine the fit his McCormack-created mother would have had?).

Jadzia couldn't even get her head around the concept of marriage...I don't think she gave a damn.

She married the big oaf, didn't she? She understood marriage just fine.

She only married him after ridiculing everything about his beliefs and even the idea of monogamy itself.

C'mon, this is Dax we're talking about. We know she's (they're) deeply respectful of and appreciative of Klingon culture and beliefs from previous and subsequent episodes; if anyone's in a position to bitch, it's Dax. Curzon could've definitely said some similar things, and at least Jadzia didn't say the Empire is doomed to die and deserves it.

As to monogamy, it's possible joined Trill occasionally have a difficult time with the concept as serial beings? Although there was no evidence of that in Jadiza prior (or subsequently)...

And ultimately after all, she did come around.

 

[Snaploud]

DS9 Alexander is just too weird for me. I prefer post-DS9 treklit Alexander.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

DS9 Alexander is just too weird for me. I prefer post-DS9 treklit Alexander.

I thought he was kind of creepy and weird in DS9.. I'm glad he wasn't MY kid, LOL

 

[Pauln6]

I'm guessing a lot of Trek writers had daddy issues: Spock, Picard, Riker, Crusher, Troi, Wesley, Sisko, Paris etc. Come to think of it, I think it's just about only Jake, Geordi, and Harry Kim had any kind of meaningful relationship with their fathers - the rest were dead or a pain. Somebody should have kept tally of the number of times they used those plot elements - it makes the so-called utopian Trek future look dangerous and unappealing to the family unit.

 

[Jonny]

They certainly did seem to have a lot of father issues in Star Trek. As for Worf and Alexander I thought the way Worf didn't contact Alexander for years would've been out of character for him with the way he banged on about honour nearly every episode he was in at one stage lol.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

It doesn't really matter, but I'm rather unwilling to think that Klingon children grow up twice as fast as humans simply because of Alexander's appearance on DS9. That seems to sit rather uneasily with what I understand of Worf's backstory for one thing.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Personally I think that if Proka was in any way abusive, it was in Rugal's best interests to find him a good home - whether that was with Pa'Dar or not. He clearly didn't want to return to Cardassia, and if you're going to be consistent that children should be allowed to choose individually, you have to respect Rugal's wishes.

I think that's a fair concession about Pa'Dar moving (back) to Bajor though (although can you imagine the fit his McCormack-created mother would have had?).

IF she existed in canon, some sort of visitation could have been arranged as long as she wasn't party to the abuse. Of course, canon never indicates that there was another parent.

And ultimately after all, she did come around.

Only reluctantly, and after having said a lot of derisive things. I hardly think that's ground for a solid, trusting marriage.

 

[Thestral]

I think that's a fair concession about Pa'Dar moving (back) to Bajor though (although can you imagine the fit his McCormack-created mother would have had?).

IF she existed in canon, some sort of visitation could have been arranged as long as she wasn't party to the abuse. Of course, canon never indicates that there was another parent.[/QUOTE]

Err... I was referring to Pa'Dar's definitely non-canonical mother (hence the "his"), whose rage would've blackened Cardassia's sun if Kotan left Cardassia to live on Bajor. She certainly wouldn't have been interested in visitation.

I assume by "abuse" you're referring to Proka's (potential) wife who would've had a hand in any (very much) alleged abuse?

And even if there was abuse from the Prokas, there's still the possibility of another Bajoran family instead of Pa'Dar (if Pa'Dar wasn't willing to move to Bajoran territory) - assuming children should be allowed to choose individually who they are going to be.

And ultimately after all, she did come around.

Only reluctantly, and after having said a lot of derisive things. I hardly think that's ground for a solid, trusting marriage.

Again, this is Dax; derisive things are in her (Joined) nature; we (and Worf) know how much she truly respects Klingon culture and society. It's just a somewhat louder, more obnoxious version of the "cold feet" trope. And with as much as her characterization had become totally defined by the men on the show (Worf's lover or Sisko's confidante, take your pick) and subsumed into Klingon-ness, it was good to see her be a bit critical.

Worf felt confident about her coming around to an understanding, and subsequent episodes clearly bore out that he was right.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Oh, you meant Pa'Dar's mother (Geleth), not Rugal's Bajoran "mother." My bad! And yes, my supposition is that either Proka's wife would've had a hand in the abuse, if there was abuse, or would herself be victim to it (hence the second option of allowing her visitation as long as she was not accompanied by her husband).

And to expect a minor--especially one that may have been abused--to be able to make such a decision is too much. Even in our society, while an older minor may be able to make a statement that the judge might take into consideration, that decision is going to be made by a family court judge and not by an underage person.

In a lot of ways, Rugal's case reminds me of this international abduction case, where the people who did the abduction even tried to brainwash the child against his American father: http://bringseanhome.org/wordpress/goldman-case/goldman-case-index/

Unfortunately the child loses no matter what in a case like this. To me, both the older and younger Pa'Dar are victims, Dukat the known perpetrator of a crime, and the Prokas possibly involved in child abuse (and I will continue to say that since they were never officially exonerated that we saw, in the episode).

Regarding Dax--to my mind she went wrong as soon as the writers did the Klingon Party Girl angle with her (IMO Curzon's personality took her over, which contributes later to Ezri's fears), and that whole thing just made it even worse.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

Actually I think that Rugal was "abused" in one way for sure. Prokas hatred toward Cardassians was turned toward him too. Even if they didn't intend that (and I'm not sure they didn't), he was a Cardassian. He hated everything he saw in a mirror, everything he was. I think Sisco sent him with his real father, because he believed it would be better for the boy.

Do you think Rugal would have a chance to live normally on Bajor when he grows? Look at Ziyal - she was half-Bajoran and wasn't accepted; he was Bajoran, but only inside, outside he would be antoher Cardassian on Bajor.

The book The Never-ending Sacrifice was great, but I wish they would follow the subject in DS9 series too, just to see what happened to him.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Yeah, I have a whole different opinion on the situation with Rugal than McCormack. She wrote a very good book, but to me it feels like an AU because I DO think the self-hatred instilled in Rugal was very dangerous. Now, I think that WITH his own father, and NOT with Proka, he might've had a chance no matter where he was, because he would have that anchor, and a much more unconditional sort of love. Hell, Pa'Dar could even have been offered a place to live on DS9, as long as the Garak problem could be solved.

One random thing I don't understand. Why didn't Rugal wear his hair differently than other Cardassian males? I can explain the Cardassians IN the Union all doing that as an expression of totalitarianism, but wouldn't one expect Rugal to try to do something a little more Bajoran?

Unless, of course, Proka REALLY was either a) uncreative or b) wanted to make him look like a Cardassian officer to intensify the self-hatred?