Spoilers Wonder Woman - Grading & Discussion

[LJones41]

While there was some objectification in the WW movie, it was definitely a lot better than some movies out there.

The objectification of both women and men are in a lot of movies - comic book films or other kinds.

 

[theenglish]

Why would they regret it? WB launched their film universe with their biggest flagship character. That's not a surprising strategy.



"Accept?" You say this as if there was some public resistance to the character. There was not. WB had to get its film act together beyond one off productions (Superman Returns) infantile, TV-esque hack work (Green Lantern) or successful, but isolated series (Nolan's Bat-films), in order to finally adapt the top characters as one series. It was not about anyone not accepting a Wonder Woman film, as fans had wanted to see the character get the big budget, big screen treatment for years, longing for the character to be treated with respect, rather than continue to be haunted by the spectre of the largely terrible Carter TV series.



The right time was after the character made a splash in Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice. The framework of the film allowed the character to shine



Again, you're not being honest. One, WW's production budget was $149M, which does not include the marketing budget (and for films of this nature, they are large), so one cannot only focus on that production budget alone as if it were made for pennies. Two, the box office numbers are what studios are considering, and right now, Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice pushed in toward the $900M mark. If WW happens to match or pass that--great, it will be another successful DC movie to make single-minded MCU fans eat crow, since they predicted (before the release of Man of Steel) that DC was never going to have a successful film universe.For the first time, there's a true mirror of the comic companies' worlds on screen at the same time, so for me (who was there to see years of hit and miss and/or different comapined adapting the characters, hence no film universe), this is great.

Every success is a win/win--its part of a series, not the Wonder Woman Film Universe, which some seem to try to wish into existence. That's not what WB or (I will assume) the movie going audience desires.

This is the first time in while that I've agreed with your points. I think you are pretty spot on here.

 

[theenglish]

^^
I guess you missed the Jane Austen memo...

You are more than welcome to your cynical outlook, but I don't get why every time someone mentions they like Man of Steel and they see Superman as a positive, heroic, inspirational character you're trying to convince them that they're wrong.
It's not gonna work, it hasn't been working for the past four years, and why the hell should it work?



I think society needs a story about an immigrant and an outsider who overcomes doubt and prejudice to become a hero to the world, and I don't think that such a story should gloss over the problems and difficulties that many people face, and pretend the world is a hunky dory place where everything comes easy if you just smile and be a swell guy. It may not be for small children, but there's a crapton of adults today who haven't learned that lesson...

I think that you've touched upon a key point here. Comic book heroes are symbols. And symbols are fluid. They change with the times. Superman started as the working class hero, fighting the company bosses and the oligarchs. But he evolved to become what you stated--the heroic immigrant trying to find justice in the world while being conflicted about where his loyalties lie.

I agree with several posters above in that Wonder Woman has now taken on the Superman role in the DCEU. She has the heroic ideals while still having the internal conflict between her upbringing and her belief in what is right.

 

[theenglish]

It's true that WW follows a more conventional three-act play type of narrative, and is therefore easy to follow for those accustomed or acculturated to that conventionalism.

But I wish more stories would challenge that normative artificial narrative structure. Writers and directors should think outside the box and try to make something more organic instead of always imposing the same structure on everything. Life is not a neat three-act play.

Kor

Writers and directors DO think outside of that box and make some wonderful movies. In recent years though, those movies have smaller budgets. That is the niche that companies like Netflix and Amazon are trying to take advantage of now, which is why their products receive critical acclaim. Writers and directors like Martin Scorcese and David Lynch might never have had the opportunity to thrive in the modern era without HBO, Netflix or Amazon.

 

[theenglish]

My local nonIMAX local theater will also be bringing back WW starting this Friday, so looks like many places are getting this expansion.

This August completely sucks for movies, so theaters might as well bring back WW, right?

I'm pretty tempted to see the movie again on the big screen.

I would love to see it again. As I mentioned upthread it was a great experience with my twins and my nieces when we saw it originally. My daughter keeps asking to see it again--my kids have Moana and Sing on constant Netflix rotation so I would love to have WW in there.

 

[theenglish]

Without detailing this thread, I'm going to say that it's a very troubling state of affairs when even the subject of entertainment has been overrun by an epidemic of people buying into an idea that isn't even remotely accurate and can be easily and factually disproven and continuing to espouse and cling to said idea even after it has been disproven.

This post reminds me of FB posts where I'm not certain if liking it means I'm a liberal or a conservative.

EDIT: I apologize for all of my comments appearing separately. It has been some time since I've had the chance to read for pleasure and I was just responding as I read.

 

[DigificWriter]

What is this in regard to?

Kor

The DCEU as a whole and how a film like Wonder Woman fits, tonally, with its other installments.

Also, Superman.

 

[The Realist]

Without detailing this thread, I'm going to say that it's a very troubling state of affairs when even the subject of entertainment has been overrun by an epidemic of people buying into an idea that isn't even remotely accurate and can be easily and factually disproven and continuing to espouse and cling to said idea even after it has been disproven.

To the extent this post seems to be saying that those who disagree with you about the DCEU films to date can "easily and factually" be proven wrong ... there's not a lot that can be "factually disproven" about people's emotional response to a creative work. You can recite chapter and verse if you like as to how Snyder's Superman is a wonderfully realized character, or how Wonder Woman doesn't constitute a dramatic break from what has gone before, and you might even manage a decent argument on paper. But the fact (there's that word again, and this time it applies) is that for many viewers, their emotional response to Wonder Woman is fundamentally and profoundly different than their reaction to Snyder's movies and characterizations. You can't argue or "prove" people out of that, and people certainly aren't wrong if they find the Snyderverse Superman a dreary cipher, and Jenkins and Gadot's Wonder Woman a joyous inspiration.

(And apologies if this is not what you were getting at with your somewhat cryptic comment, but I was inferring based on previous posts I've seen from you.)

 

[DigificWriter]

^ You make a decent point, but there IS a difference between opinions that have evidentiary 'weight' behind them and opinions that don't, and when it comes to the DCEU in general and Superman and Wonder Woman in particular, there's a significant evidentiary disconnect between "popular" opinion and the reality of what has been presented onscreen in the DCEU thus far and the intentions/motivation behind said presentation.

 

[The Realist]

^ The point is that the only evidence that's required to say, "I am not moved or inspired or engaged by Snyder's Superman" is a viewer's own experience and perceptions. In this context, the intentions/motivations of the filmmakers are irrelevant; the proof is in the execution and the response of the audience.

 

[mos6507]

I personally don't like it, but there is a tradition of "beautiful violence" in film (John Woo, for example) with brutal things presented in an aesthetically interesting and artistic manner, such as gunshot wounds bursting like blossoming flowers. Perhaps Snyder is going for that.

It's epidemic in the industry. Look at Mathew Vaughn movies like Kick-Ass and Kingsmans, made even worse by slapping on some classic music like the Banana Splits theme or Freebird. But this wouldn't happen unless a big swath of society really liked it. Note the sentiment on the first comment of the Kingsman scene. I am guessing this is a generational thing. If you're under 30 you get off on pornlike violence and like to brag about it in expletive-laden youtube comments.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

The Post 1960's left resent heroines being attractive?

How about that first issue of a famous leftward leaning magazine?

http://68.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5k9ulgGYR1rvlmeyo1_1280.jpg

Or its 35th?

https://news.ucsc.edu/2007/11/images/ms.cover.300.jpg

In fact when that same mag turned 40, it used a poster sized version of the cover as a come on to renew one's membership.

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2012/10/01/ms-turns-40-and-wonder-womans-back-on-our-cover/


http://www.wonderwomancollectors.com/magazines-21l.jpg

All in all, our beautiful lady has been on the cover of Ms. 5 times in that mag's 45 year career and dare I say this last one will NOT be the last time she's there.

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2017/07/06/wonder-woman-back-cover-ms-see-name-issue/

As for the Box office update on WW...

WW is estimated at $801,000,000+ this weekend.

BVS made $873,000,000 + AND cost a $101,000,000 more to make.

If we take that 101 mill off the top to "even" the playing field... that would make WW 28 million ahead of BvS and its theatrical run has just begun in Japan.

You GO girl!

ETA:

Just found this page...

http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Wonder-Woman-(2017)/China#tab=international

If the Japanese take to WW even half as much as the way China did.... YOWZA!

 

[DigificWriter]

^ The point is that the only evidence that's required to say, "I am not moved or inspired or engaged by Snyder's Superman" is a viewer's own experience and perceptions. In this context, the intentions/motivations of the filmmakers are irrelevant; the proof is in the execution and the response of the audience.

That's not evidence; it's an opinion. It's also directly contradicted by factual evidence that exists independently of any individual responses to the approach to the DC characters that has been taken thus far.

You don't have to like the approach that's been taken thus far with characters such as Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, but claiming that said approach demonstrates a "lack of respect for or lack of understanding of" said characters is just factually inaccurate, regardless of how "popular" said opinion may be.

It is also just factually inaccurate to make the claim that there is any significant difference between the TONAL and VISUAL aesthetic of MoS, BvS, SS, and WW, or that WW is an example of Patty Jenkins somehow having more respect for and understanding of the character of Wonder Woman than Zack Snyder does of/for the characters of Superman and Batman.

 

[ichab]

James Cameron certainly put his foot in his mouth today with some bewildering remarks...



Patty Jenkins replied...


So a "beauty icon" can't be a strong, independent kick-ass lead? What makes these comments particularly egregiously wrong is that the real-world Gal Gadot would give his fictional Sarah Conner a run for her money.

Wonder woman was in no way "objectified" in this movie. Obviously Cameron can't handle women herioes who are both smart and gorgeous. Can't wait to see his response to Captain Marvel.

PS: This all coming from a director who had Jamie Lee Curtis do a sleazy sex dance for Arnold in True Lies. What a hypocrite.

 

[LJones41]

Dear God . . . you had to bring up that scene.

 

[JD]

Again, because she's naive. It doesn't matter to her which nations are fighting which and why or that the poor old ostrich died for nothing.

Thanks for posting that, I actually found it very informative. I know almost nothing about WWI, other than that it basically lead to WWII, and started when someone was assassinated.

 

[Reverend]

Thanks for posting that, I actually found it very informative. I know almost nothing about WWI, other than that it basically lead to WWII, and started when someone was assassinated.

When I was in school, they used to put this on for us on rainy days when we were shut in at break time. Way more informative than the actual history lessons they gave us on WWI.

Anyway, if you want a well presented and reasonably concise recounting of the major factors, this might be a good place to start.

 

[JD]

Thank you, that was really interesting. I didn't realize Germany was that new of a country, I thought they had been around at least as long as England, France, and Spain.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Thank you, that was really interesting. I didn't realize Germany was that new of a country, I thought they had been around at least as long as England, France, and Spain.

Well, in one form or another, Germany has been around for that long, but with interruptions.

 

[JD]

I really wish the US education system actually taught us about things that happened between our Civil War and us entering WWII. And between Ancient Rome and the colonization of the Americas.