Spoilers Wonder Woman - Grading & Discussion

[Gaith]

I cringe every time I see someone call Wonder Woman the Goddess of War just because they think about how physically strong she is, when in reality she's far more likely to talk things out whenever possible instead of slaughtering the oppossition wholesale.

I dunno; in the movie, she seemed pretty kill-happy to me. Was she ever shown to have any misgivings/regret/sadness about the N̶a̶z̶, er, German soldiers she wiped out? And what about that German ship that crashed near the island - was there any attempt made to rescue/capture any of the mechanics, cooks, navigators, or quartermasters aboard?

 

[LJones41]

You're right. I completely forgot about that woman.. Probably because all of the pilots not named Anakin Skywalker were completely useless in that battle and therefore did nothing to stand out.

Neither did any of the minor pilots in "Rogue One" or "The Force Awakens". So? If this is about those two movie having female leads. That's great, but for me, it hasn't helped the STAR WARS franchise under Disney, as far as I'm concerned.

All in all, WW is still better than the Superman movies of the 21st century, so far, and by far.

I believe "Wonder Woman" is a lot better than any of the 20th century Superman and Batman flicks. As for being better than "Man of Steel" . . . nah, I don't think so.

 

[dahj]

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=21866

The bluray extras list, among other things, what sounds like an Etta Candy focused short film:

Epilogue: Etta's Mission – Etta Candy gets the boys back together for a secret mission that could impact humanity's future.

 

[Kor]

WW opens in Japan on August 25. While it's true that female protagonists are common in Japanese genre fiction, they are generally different from the powerful, independent warrior-leader type embodied in Wonder Woman.

Apparently there was some fan backlash against the marketing there, which presented the character as some cutesy naif who can't get by without a man's help: http://en.rocketnews24.com/2017/05/...ne-treatment-in-japan-and-fans-are-not-happy/

Kor

 

[Dream]

I don't know what would have been wrong with advertising the movie an action movie in Japan. The fact that it stars a female lead shouldn't even be a big issue, it should already be something very common in blockbuster movies, that's long overdue.

Instead of "Great woman's movie!" or "Great man's movie" it should just be "Great movie" instead.

 

[Morpheus 02]

I don't know what would have been wrong with advertising the movie an action movie in Japan. The fact that it stars a female lead shouldn't even be a big issue, it should already be something very common in blockbuster movies, that's long overdue.

Instead of "Great woman's movie!" or "Great man's movie" it should just be "Great movie" instead.

How did they advertise "Ghost in the SHell" there, and how did it do (in Japan)?


Also, It looks pretty clear that WW will overtake SPider-Man in BoxOfficeMojo's "Superhero origin" list as #1

So it will at least climb to #7, but perhaps even up to #5 for comic book adaptation

Can't wait to see what happens..

 

[Sci]

I believe "Wonder Woman" is a lot better than any of the 20th century Superman and Batman flicks. As for being better than "Man of Steel" . . . nah, I don't think so.

The fact that Wonder Woman seems to actually respect and feel affection for its source material, rather than trying to tear it down the way Man of Steel does, is a plus in my book. Also, the director of Wonder Woman seems to have remembered that an elemental superhero story like this ought to be as much for children as for adults, which I think also makes it a better film; it's not desperately trying to take an archetypal children's power fantasy and turn it into a Dark And Serious Work of Art For Grownups Come On Guys Please Take Us Seriously Guys the way Snyder did in Man of Steel and Batman v. Superman.

 

[DigificWriter]

It is not even remotely accurate to state that Man of Steel "tears down its source material", because Man of Steel is the Superman film that made me like Superman.

 

[Jax]

The fact that Wonder Woman seems to actually respect and feel affection for its source material, rather than trying to tear it down the way Man of Steel does

 

[JanewayRulz!]

WW opens in Japan on August 25. While it's true that female protagonists are common in Japanese genre fiction, they are generally different from the powerful, independent warrior-leader type embodied in Wonder Woman.

Apparently there was some fan backlash against the marketing there, which presented the character as some cutesy naif who can't get by without a man's help: http://en.rocketnews24.com/2017/05/...ne-treatment-in-japan-and-fans-are-not-happy/

Kor

This quote from the above link made me stop and wonder. (No pun intended)

Some Twitter users were, however, somewhat more understanding of Warner Brothers Japan’s position, tweeting:

“Sure, the ad is vulgar and in really bad taste, but in a country where an idol group like AKB48 sells, I guess a good percentage of the public simply isn’t willing to embrace or empathize with a strong female character who doesn’t need the help of a man.”

That certainly may be true, when you consider the fact that prominent heroines in Japanese pop culture include characters like the sexy Cutie Honey or the very young (and we mean junior-high-school-young) Sailor Soldiers from Sailor Moon and the magical girls from Pretty Cure.

The ad campaign may be trying to market itself a la "Frozen"... which is what this article ...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottm...der-woman-be-japans-next-frozen/#17c6e3a92f3a

...championed weeks ago.

This next quote stands out in the Forbes article (and answers the Ghost in the Shell question).

The real question is whether Wonder Woman plays like a DC Films offering, a somewhat conventional MCU superhero movie or, ha ha, a Disney princess adventure. First of all, none of the Hunger Games or Twilight Saga films made more than $7 million in Japan, so those aren't helpful in terms of comparisons. And no, that Wonder Woman isn't a Japanese-specific property isn't necessarily a disadvantage, as Power Rangers made just $1m in Japan (it just opened last week) while Ghost in the Shell made just $9m. Actually, inflation/deflation notwithstanding, Man of Steel also made $9m back in 2013. Batman v Superman and Suicide Squad both made $16 million-$17 million, which is almost identical to Kong: Skull Island ($17m) and Doctor Strange ($16m). Looking at recent MCU movies, if Wonder Woman plays like that we're looking at a range between $10m (Ant-Man, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2) and $26m (Avengers: Age of Ultron, Captain America: Civil War). But, and this is a big "but," if I'm Warner Bros. I'm selling the hell out of Wonder Woman as a princess adventure fable, as opposed to a comic book superhero movie. Because, well, for example, Frozen earned $249m in Japan back in 2014.

Alas, the WB marketing dept seems not to have finished reading the above article, since they stopped with the idea of "cartoon" Princesses and did not continue reading through to the Forbes quote about...

the marketing (for Frozen) played up the female empowerment angle right as Japanese society was starting to come to terms with societal chauvinism.

Who knows who's right? I certainly am no expert on Japan or "marketing" but time will tell soon enough if the strategy is correct since WW opens in just 8 more days.

Oh... and without Japan's input, WW is just 2.2 mill shy of the 800 mill mark worldwide.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=wonderwoman.htm

As of Tuesday.. its daily gross is 4-7 times as much as its "fellows" in the DCEU...

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/showdowns/chart/?view=daily&id=dcuni.htm

I love how despite being behind the other three films in weekly (domestic) grosses at the end of week 1, WW pulled far ahead of the 3 others in weekly grosses by week 2 and still (week 11) hasn't relinquished its hold on that spot.

The same observation can be made for the weekly domestic grosses of the summer superhero movies.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/showdowns/chart/?view=daily&id=2017superhero.htm

After week 1, third place WW catches up and surpasses the other 2 movies each week. I acknowledge that without "Maleficent" sized numbers from Japan, WW won't hit worldwide grosses to challenge GotG's 862 million, but then again Guardians cost 51 million more than WW to make and currently their worldwide receipts are only 63 million apart. Even "Ghost in the Shell" sized box office will bring WW into striking distance of GotG's profitability.

You GO girl!

 

[LJones41]

The fact that Wonder Woman seems to actually respect and feel affection for its source material, rather than trying to tear it down the way Man of Steel does, is a plus in my book.

Not even the comics "respect and feel affection for its source material". There are so many different takes on the superhero characters that it leaves my head spinning. A lot of people are raving over the "Injustice 2" video game and yet it's a different spin on the DC characters. Not even the MCU or any of the other Marvel films are that faithful to its source material. So to condemn the DCEU for not "respecting" the source material strikes me as rather odd.

And considering the Word War I setting and the fate of Steve Trevor, how does this movie "respect the source material"? Especially since Diana will be going into an emotional purdah after the events of this film?


Also, the public reaction to Superman's portrayal in the DCEU strikes me as incredibly hypocritical and flaky. Before "Man of Steel", people had complained about how boring or one-dimensional Superman was or how he needed to be portrayed with a bit more angst. After Zack Snyder did exactly that in "Man of Steel" and "Batman v. Superman", these same fans started bitching and moaning, and demanding that he return to the one-dimensional superhero that "he was". I've seen the portrayal of Superman in the movies that Chris Reeve did, George Reeves' TV show, "Lois & Clark", "Smallville" and "Superman Returns". I don't recall Superman always being portrayed as a one-dimensional "hero" in those productions.

There are times when I get the feeling that a lot of people really have no idea on what they truly want.

 

[Dream]

This is not the Man of Steel topic.

Let's move discussion back to Wonder Woman.

 

[Sci]

It is not even remotely accurate to state that Man of Steel "tears down its source material", because Man of Steel is the Superman film that made me like Superman.

A Superman film should not be dour, morose, and defeatist. Nor should it be about "explaining" why Superman doesn't kill, about how he had to do this terrible thing and now he's determined to never do that again. Nor should a Superman film be about how his father taught him to be a selfish bastard who lets innocent people die, and nor should it be about Superman himself getting numerous innocent people killed for no particularly good reason.

The basic problem with Man of Steel is that it tried to present a psychologically realistic Superman. But Superman is not supposed to be a psychologically realistic character; he's supposed to be an aspirational character. Superman is the guy you imagined your dad was when you were five, not the guy your dad actually was when you were five.

Not even the comics "respect and feel affection for its source material". There are so many different takes on the superhero characters that it leaves my head spinning.

Yeah, there are derivative stories based on the main source material that go in different directions. But if you're doing the first major motion picture based on a major Golden Age comic book superhero, you should actually look at the essence of the character, particularly when the character is essentially an Apollonian archetype, as both Superman and Wonder Woman are.

Wonder Woman respects the heroic Apollonian archetype that its title character is supposed to embody and faithfully re-creates that. Man of Steel tries to deconstruct that archetype and fails miserably, because, hey, you can't deconstruct an element.

 

[dahj]

A Superman film should not be dour, morose, and defeatist.

Well I guess it's nice that Man of Steel is none of those things.

 

[DigificWriter]

A Superman film should not be dour, morose, and defeatist. Nor should it be about "explaining" why Superman doesn't kill, about how he had to do this terrible thing and now he's determined to never do that again. Nor should a Superman film be about how his father taught him to be a selfish bastard who lets innocent people die, and nor should it be about Superman himself getting numerous innocent people killed for no particularly good reason.

The basic problem with Man of Steel is that it tried to present a psychologically realistic Superman. But Superman is not supposed to be a psychologically realistic character; he's supposed to be an aspirational character. Superman is the guy you imagined your dad was when you were five, not the guy your dad actually was when you were five.

The DCEU Superman IS aspirational; he's also fully three-dimensional and not an exaggerated caricature of "the perfect man".

Superman, at his core, is "Space Jesus"/"Space Moses", and the DCEU version of the character embodies and is representative of that better and to a far greater degree than any other portayal of the character that I've ever seen... including the comics.

 

[Noname Given]

How did they advertise "Ghost in the SHell" there, and how did it do (in Japan)?


Also, It looks pretty clear that WW will overtake SPider-Man in BoxOfficeMojo's "Superhero origin" list as #1

So it will at least climb to #7, but perhaps even up to #5 for comic book adaptation

Can't wait to see what happens..

Except - adjusted for inflation for 2002 (the year the Sony Spiderman film premired) - that list looks like this:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres/chart/?id=superheroorigin.htm&adjust_yr=2002&p=.htm

That doesn't change the fact WW performed VERY well, but it still has a way to go to actually dethrone Sony's first 'Spiderman' film.

 

[Ovation]

A Superman film should not be dour, morose, and defeatist. Nor should it be about "explaining" why Superman doesn't kill, about how he had to do this terrible thing and now he's determined to never do that again. Nor should a Superman film be about how his father taught him to be a selfish bastard who lets innocent people die, and nor should it be about Superman himself getting numerous innocent people killed for no particularly good reason.

The basic problem with Man of Steel is that it tried to present a psychologically realistic Superman. But Superman is not supposed to be a psychologically realistic character; he's supposed to be an aspirational character. Superman is the guy you imagined your dad was when you were five, not the guy your dad actually was when you were five.



Yeah, there are derivative stories based on the main source material that go in different directions. But if you're doing the first major motion picture based on a major Golden Age comic book superhero, you should actually look at the essence of the character, particularly when the character is essentially an Apollonian archetype, as both Superman and Wonder Woman are.

Wonder Woman respects the heroic Apollonian archetype that its title character is supposed to embody and faithfully re-creates that. Man of Steel tries to deconstruct that archetype and fails miserably, because, hey, you can't deconstruct an element.

"Should" is NOT applicable. You can like or dislike (as intensely as you wish) the portrayal of Superman but there is no obligation to approach the character in any particular fashion. This is especially true of a character that has, literally, thousands of presentations of the same flavour. I would not have made all the same choices Snyder made in his deconstruction (and any fictional character can be deconstructed--Superman is not exempt), but A) I applaud his willingness to try and B) appreciate the broad strokes of his attempt (especially the Kents--the tornado scene was not as well handled as it could have been, but the overall fear for what might happen to Clark in a post-Watergate, more cynical world was note perfect, as was the fact neither parent had "all the right answers").

I am more sympathetic to your argument regarding Wonder Woman, as her wide exposure is more limited and it is her first feature film--but Superman is "fair game" for a different take (and, if Wonder Woman continues to be as popular over the next decade, she will be too).

I fully understand my views are not a majority position. I have zero problem with that. I have a HUGE problem when anyone argues artistic endeavours (in the broad sense of art--popular as well as fine, in any medium) "should" be one particular way. The audience is NOT entitled to a particular interpretation. EVER.

 

[Dream]

Except - adjusted for inflation for 2002 (the year the Sony Spiderman film premired) - that list looks like this:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres/chart/?id=superheroorigin.htm&adjust_yr=2002&p=.htm

That doesn't change the fact WW performed VERY well, but it still has a way to go to actually dethrone Sony's first 'Spiderman' film.

Wonder Woman will dethrone Spider-Man.

About inflation numbers, they are interesting footnotes at best.

Just because Spider-Man made that much with inflation in 2002, doesn't mean that movie would have made that much if released in 2017, it would have been bound to make much less.

Movie going itself has been declining for years, but higher prices have help offset this. Inflation is a very iffy way to compare movies released in two different eras.

According the inflation argument and you, Gone With The Wind would have made $1.7 billion in North America if released RIGHT NOW. That's laughable and false.

Studios and the media themselves rarely if ever report inflation numbers.

Spider-Man is listed at $403 million, which WW should be passing pretty soon and the media is going to report this. No amount of screaming or arm flailing is going to change that.

 

[Sci]

The DCEU Superman IS aspirational; he's also fully three-dimensional and not an exaggerated caricature of "the perfect man".

1. No, he's not. He's a dour, melancholic whiner. He is also a deeply selfish person; in fact, one of the fundamental problems with his portrayal in Batman v. Superman is that both characters seem to be motivated by a pseudo-Objectivist philosophy -- thereby robbing Superman of the character's defining communitarian ethos (can you really picture DCEU Superman caring enough to take on slum lords or spouse abusers or corrupt city officials?), and making it harder to believe these two have any meaningful ideological differences in spite of some throwaway lines about civil rights.

2. Superman should not be a psychologically realistic character if he is being portrayed in a manner that is respectful to the source material. If your version of Superman tries to be psychologically realistic, then frankly your version is "Superman" in name only. Superman is a children's moral power fantasy. Trying to make it something "more" than that (as though there were something less respectable about being a children's moral power fantasy) undermines the character's power as an archetype. (Marvel Studios has largely gotten the same basic archetype correct by contrast in their Captain America films.)

Yes, that makes it hard to do a Superman movie well. Even the Christopher Reeve films got it wrong more than they got it right. You want Superman done well? Look at the 1978 Superman, look at Superman: The Animated Series, look at the Max Fleischer cartoons, look at graphic novels like Kingdom Come or, even better, A Superman For All Seasons. The best Superman stories are not really about Superman -- they're about how he inspires and changes others.

Superman, at his core, is "Space Jesus"/"Space Moses", and the DCEU version of the character embodies and is representative of that better and to a far greater degree than any other portayal of the character that I've ever seen... including the comics.

Hardly. DCEU Superman is a pseudo-Objectivist motivated more by personal desires who consistently behaves in anti-altruistic ways. Shoving fifteen tons of pseudo-Catholic iconography into the film -- in complete contradiction to the actual established motivations of the character -- is not the same as actually embodying the Mosaic archetype.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ There are people out there - including posters on these very boards - who have been reading Superman comics and consuming other Superman-related media their entire lives and would disagree wirh you.