I did say "here".
My point was that it's asinine for an American to tell a European how popular WW is in Europe just based on some covers and publications. Lots of stuff is published without approaching the icon status of Superman.
Spoilers Wonder Woman - Grading & Discussion
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I did say "here".
My point was that it's asinine for an American to tell a European how popular WW is in Europe just based on some covers and publications. Lots of stuff is published without approaching the icon status of Superman.
I skimmed the last page of posts, I admit. Wonder Woman has succeeded in its own right because it was a great movie that people wanted to see, perhaps repeatedly. It didn't have an overwhelming opening but it had legs. It survived on its own merits. There should be no debate on that. Compare the weekly numbers to other films.
I would be willing to bet that if it does get an Oscar nod and is re-released in February that there will be many more people going to see it. People are hungry for a movie with a female protagonist that they can take their family to see. I know people who with younger children than me who were disturbed by Rogue One that took their daughters to Wonder Woman. My own daughter of ten loved both movies and now plays Jedi and Superheroes with her brothers and friends, something she never wanted to do two years ago (before Rey came along in that other movie). My son loved all of these movies as well, and so did his friends--despite the female protagonists. Isn't that a positive thing?
I'm all for more superhero movies with female protagonists that my son enjoys as well. And I think many others are as well.
I would be willing to bet that if it does get an Oscar nod and is re-released in February that there will be many more people going to see it. People are hungry for a movie with a female protagonist that they can take their family to see. I know people who with younger children than me who were disturbed by Rogue One that took their daughters to Wonder Woman. My own daughter of ten loved both movies and now plays Jedi and Superheroes with her brothers and friends, something she never wanted to do two years ago (before Rey came along in that other movie). My son loved all of these movies as well, and so did his friends--despite the female protagonists. Isn't that a positive thing?
I'm all for more superhero movies with female protagonists that my son enjoys as well. And I think many others are as well.
And the poster you mocked said GENERICALLY "overseas" and "numerous countries". The only specific country he mentioned was Japan, which hasn't responded released the movie yet.
absolutely NO menion of Europe or your country . There are three other continents (other than North America) bigger than yours, plus numerous Pacific Islands.
Also, what other female superheroes are popular (or even known) in those parts of the world?
Before this whole superhero craze started, the only Marvel characters I was familiar with was Spiderman and the Hulk. Spiderman because of the animated series and the Hulk because of the ferrigno and bixby T.V show. When both characters were given the big screen treatment, both had great box office on opening weekend but only Spiderman had legs and was successful. Ang Lee's Hulk crashed and burned. Proving once again that brand recognition is no guarantee of success at the box office. You'll get a big opening weekend but after that success or failure is determined by the quality of the film.There are so many examples of this that I'm surprised this is even being debated.
To be fair Ang Lees "Hulk" crashed and burned because (like many superhero films before Marvel Studios tried actually sticking closer to the characters as they were in the actual comics and embracing that aspect and 40 years of comic lore instead of trying to re-tailor it) - it was just a bad film that superficially used the characters.
At the screening I was in I saw a man and a young boy, who I assumed to be father and son, without any girls around. I could hear the boy really getting into it just because it was an exciting movie overall. For an adaptation to keep Diana's feminist roots and have such a broad appeal is really kind of amazing. I remember being a kid and it wasn't cool like Wonder Woman more than Batman or Superman because eww she's a girl! I sincerely hope this movie finally helps get rid of the stigma of boys having to hide liking female characters just for being awesome characters and not because they wear skimpy costumes. The fact that one of them maintains the importance of truth, love, and equality for all in a cynical age means even more to me. I cringe every time I see someone call Wonder Woman the Goddess of War just because they think about how physically strong she is, when in reality she's far more likely to talk things out whenever possible instead of slaughtering the oppossition wholesale.
Like you said, people are wanting change and studios are having to recognize that. We've demanded it more than the complete nuclear disarmament of the entire world (sorry, Superman). Star Wars as a franchise has really helped with this. It's awesome to see characters like Ahsoka, Hera, Sabine, Rey, and Jyn be just as capable as their male counterparts (or more in Hera's case where she outlfew Darth Vader in a freighter). Speaking of flying, one thing I loved about Rogue One, and The Force Awakens to an extent, was seeing female pilots in the battle. It was great to see an idea that was cut from the Original Trilogy be put back in onscreen. It's a relief knowing that we actually can get movies and TV shows with female leads now. No more hiding behind the whole "female superheroes just don't sell" nonsense whenever one doesn't do so great.
Quick question for you. Do your kids not watch much TV? While I can't recommend Jessica Jones on the grounds of its adult themes, I can say they would probably like Supergirl and Legends of Tomorrow on the CW. Bonus points for Lynda Carter being the President of the United States on Supergirl.
Great post, thank you.
My kids like The Flash and Supergirl but they are really bigger fans on the Thundermans on Nickolodean or Disney. I am also a fan of Supergirl for the same reasons I mentioned in original post. This seasons lesbian arc inspired some interesting questions but my response was (in a casual voice) that sometimes girls like girls and boys like boys. They accepted that answer as completely logical. My kids are fraternal twins, a boy and girl, with completely different interests--but when I said that they looked at each other, nodded, and we kept watching the episode. It was a pretty cool moment.
Also, we are all pretty big fans of the Series of Unfortunate Events on Netflix and the books. Another great example of a positive female protagonist.
I love Ang Lee's Hulk.
Your response is why I don't take "it's a kids show" as an excuse to make a poor product. Batman: The Animated Series and X-Men were pretty serious in most of their episodes and us kids watching in the early 90s managed to follow them pretty well. People underestimate just how much kids can comprehend things when properly engaged. For an example of badness just look at The Emoji Movie where critics talked about theaters packed with kids staying dead silent most of the time because the jokes in it were awful.
Violet in that series is great. I definitely liked her more than the movie version (something that could be said about the whole series actually). Fun Fact: the actress playing Violet in ASoUE also plays the young version of Kara in Supergirl.
It also sounds like you have some great kids and I applaud your parenting.
Thanks you for your clear-minded, honest reply. But we have to remember that certain members' reactionary behavior is what you should expect when one is fueled by an agenda absolutely free of evidence from history, evidence which stands on the opposite of that member's baseless claim about Wonder Woman being some largely unknown character. Businesses do not spend decades distributing and marketing a specific character across the world if there's no potential to earn profits (this is no mystery).
Batgirl is likely in the number two spot, but by no means on the level of Wonder Woman. WW had more than two decades before the Barbara Gordon Batgirl's comic book debut (January, 1967), so WW had stronger audience identification. However, from the start, Batgirl--no matter how good or bad the handling--gained much visibility from adaptations (the 60s live action Batman TV series, Filmation's 1968-70 / 1977 Batman cartoons) and appearing on every type of product one can imagine. The 60s Batman series was an enormously popular product in endless foreign counties across the globe (translated in as many languages), so the character was exposed to millions no other female superhero (other than WW in the top spot) can match.
Discussion aside, I love that GIF of Gal Gadot. 
You have many good points here that have been well researched. I would, however, actually switch Diana and Barbara around as Barbara has made more appearances outside of comic books. While the continuing popularity of Lynda Carter's TV show and Diana's continued presence in the Justice League, often as the team's only woman, in adaptations can't be denied, she still hasn't had the same level of exposure as Babs. On top of your listed examples are her inclusion in Batman: The Animated Series (one of the most popular superhero cartoons of all time), The Batman (controversial with fans for having Batgirl before Robin), the bastardized version of her in Batman & Robin, the live action Birds of Prey series, too many games to list here, Young Justice, Super Best Friends Forever, DC Superhero Girls, and now an upcoming live action film.
Diana is featured in several animated movies and cartoons, but nothing as extensive as Barbara simply because of every comic book fan's old enemy: rights issues. Every decision to use Wonder Woman or anything tied to her has to be cleared with the Marston estate as stated in DC's original contract with William Marston when he created her. This is one of the main reasons why there was no Wonder Woman cartoon in the 90s while Batman and Superman got their own. Bruce Timm wasn't even sure they would get the rights to use Diana in Justice League and was ready to pull the plug on the project if it didn't go through. Now this is a feat that all too often eludes creators working at DC and Marvel so I have to give a hand to Marston for his foresight while DC screwed over Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster when they sold the rights to Superman. Although they approved of the atrocious Amazons Attack! so I don't give them a lot of credit in other places.
I am glad that you specified you were talking about Barbara. Not many people know who the heck Bette Kane is or that she was the original Bat-Girl. Like I said, well researched.
I saw female pilots in the Prequel Trilogy, especially "The Phantom Menace".
I don't agree that "The Hulk" was a bad film. Actually, I found it rather interesting. I simply was not that impressed by the action sequences. On the other hand, the 2008 film, "The Incredible Hulk" had great action sequences, but the narrative didn't seem as strong to me.
Oscar nod for what? Certainly not for Best Picture. I just don't see it. It's a great movie, but I've seen better comic book hero/heroine movies that were never considered for a major Oscar nod.
You're right. I completely forgot about that woman.. Probably because all of the pilots not named Anakin Skywalker were completely useless in that battle and therefore did nothing to stand out.
Not a bad movie, Gadot and Pine do genuinely impress, but it would have helped if the writers didn't change Diana's origins for a disingenuous reason. The origin was WW2. All or nothing, why not change it to the Anglo-Zanzibar war, Cold war, Price wars, War on Drugs, and shoehorn in some claimed reason... Or better yet, why not just make a new superhero with whatever origins one wants for the reasons one wants instead, no matter how good the movie is, changing origins is tantamount to hijacking other franchises. After all, if you made a franchise and someone else came in, made changes, and you didn't like them how would you feel? Or are you just hoping against the odds that people will sit through any old thing put in front of them?
All in all, WW is still better than the Superman movies of the 21st century, so far, and by far. Ditto for the Batman flicks, WW was a lot better - even with the altered origins take.
That and what's up with superhero costumes being drab and dreary nowadays? The people who make these movies keep laying off their antidepressants or something? There's a reason their costumes used to be bold and colorful. Now it's all pale, washed-out, uninspiring puke.
All in all, WW is still better than the Superman movies of the 21st century, so far, and by far. Ditto for the Batman flicks, WW was a lot better - even with the altered origins take.
That and what's up with superhero costumes being drab and dreary nowadays? The people who make these movies keep laying off their antidepressants or something? There's a reason their costumes used to be bold and colorful. Now it's all pale, washed-out, uninspiring puke.
SPOILER FOR ANYONE WHO HASN'T SEEN THIS MOVIE YET
What's this disingenuous reason? To make sure people didn't compare it to Captain America: The First Avenger? Wonder Woman is my favorite DC character and I felt the change was perfectly justified for the character. Diana had to face cold reality that humanity often doesn't make sense, like starting a whole world war that gained absolutely nothing for anyone involved except for millions of people dead. Keeping it in World War II would automatically make the Nazis the bad guys ruining the twist at the end because, I hate to tell you this, neither side in that war was a clear-cut heroic faction. Seeing Diana stick up for the people the war was directly affecting is a powerful image that stays true to who she is as the Champion of Truth and Love. Patty Jenkins was right to take a lot of inspiration from the 1979 Superman movie to make sure Diana was closer to her true self than the version who's a dumb brute who just stabs people in the more recent comics.
If you're going to complain about origins being changed then absolutely no character would make it to the movie or TV screen. If they didn't recieve some kind of update no one would be remotely identifiable because our standards have changed. That's why most Golden Age comics don't hold up today what with their casual racism, sexism, and homophobia. Does anyone need to see the original origin of Green Arrow where he learns archery from a Native American manservant? No. Does Iron Man need to start in the Vietnam War where we get a heaping dose of Yellow Scare with poor Asian stereotypes? Hell no. Going off the original stories would have Wonder Woman as the Justice League's secretary leaving Diana to do paperwork while the boys go off to have fun. There were also the early Batman comics where Bruce went around with a badge and a gun-personal trauma be damned. Seriously, you don't have to watch Linkara's Secret Origins Month videos to understand this. It's plain common sense.
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