Awkward position? That'd make a pretty decent story.
Wonder Woman animated DVD
- Thread starter CaptainCanada
- Start date
If they're enlightened by the standards of ancient Greece, that doesn't really translate into enlightened by a more modern standard.
I just don't think that doing a society both super-enlightened and incredibly old-fashioned at the same time can really work. They're either one or the other. If they're supposed to be old-fashioned, drop the moral superiority falsehood. If they're enlightened drop the monarchy/warrior culture/all female/isolationist angle. They don't mix in any way that makes sense.
The DCAU picked the former, mainly since it provides a source of conflict, while being true to the details of the whole Amazon myth. Of course, it did logically make the Amazons villain-like, with Wonder Woman being an outcast.
I just don't think that doing a society both super-enlightened and incredibly old-fashioned at the same time can really work. They're either one or the other. If they're supposed to be old-fashioned, drop the moral superiority falsehood. If they're enlightened drop the monarchy/warrior culture/all female/isolationist angle. They don't mix in any way that makes sense.
The DCAU picked the former, mainly since it provides a source of conflict, while being true to the details of the whole Amazon myth. Of course, it did logically make the Amazons villain-like, with Wonder Woman being an outcast.
That's like telling an enlightened gay person to drop their life style because your idea of enlightenment doesn't match theirs. The Amazons idea of enlightenment is far greater than ours because they are, for all intents and purposes truly blessed! Diana was born out of sand!
And their idea of being isolated is no different than keeping strangers out of your house. And you got to look at it from their point of view of the world. They're not remaining isolated and hidden just because they think they're higher than everyone else, they're doing it because if they did, it'd make things worse for everyone. How do you think the modern world would react if out of the blue this magical floating island suddenly appears out of nowhere?
No, it's really not like that. I find their utter lack of equal rights combined with their old-school absolute-power government and warrior bent to be pretty much what it is. A less civilized, might-makes-right form of government more appropriate for a past era, not something we are working towards, something we're trying to get away from.
Blessed by the Greek gods, who even the Greeks portrayed as a bunch of selfish, over-sexed, and downright mean wierdos who abused their power at every turn. I think that was the Greek way of explaining why this world is so f*cked up.
There was never anything enlightened about the Greek gods, they were essentially just really powerful humans, with all the flaws of humans.So are they isolationist warriors or ambassadors of peace? As I said, you can have one, or you can have the other. Having both is pretty contradictory, imo.
I'd be fine with portraying the Amazons as an enlightened society, but they seem to be stuck in the past in their portrayal so far. I would drop those elements. Maybe say that they evolved from a warrior culture into something better. Give them advanced tech mixed with magic items, and loose the primitive crap.
I would frankly be onboard with this. Trappings of the past, but only trappings. I think the argument that since the Amazons play an active role in the DC universe that it's difficult to have them both ways is a valid one. That damn invisible jet had to come from somewhere.
Wow.
This movie was much better than I thought it was going to be (especially after The Death of Superman which was just one big action scene with no heart to it). Very well-rounded story, I liked all the characters, thought it was paced quite well, and most of all, it was fun!
I'd give it an 9/10.
This movie was much better than I thought it was going to be (especially after The Death of Superman which was just one big action scene with no heart to it). Very well-rounded story, I liked all the characters, thought it was paced quite well, and most of all, it was fun!
I'd give it an 9/10.
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The depictions of the government have varied over the years (obviously), but the Perez version clearly depicted a semi-constitutional government that had a Senate-type thing, albeit with a reasonably activist monarch (who is, after all, divinely-ordained); law of character economy usually shrinks that to "Diana's mom calls the shots" (notwithstanding the period where they were a republic from 2002-2007).
They prize martial skill, but they also prize learning and culture; they're meant to be the perfect package.
They're all female because they were created that way and it's what the Amazon myth that Marston spun in a different way was.
The isolationist angle's already been dropped from the comics, in general; they started receiving delegations from the outside world in the late 80s.
Which gutted the character (par for the course for the DCAU's treatment of Wonder Woman).
The isolationist angle hasn't beed dropped, they were isolationist for around 4-5 millenia. So they suddenly changed.
The idea of the Amazons is based loosely on the ancient Greek culture. The Olympics were originally a handful of sports that were directly drawn from martial skills of the era. Elite performance was idealized. The Greeks came up with some lasting philosophy, democracy, drama, poetry, art and architecture last time I looked. But it has nothing to do with original mythology, it's just something the DC writers make up. Which is fine, but for what?
There's nothing wrong with creating whatever backstory and culture for a comic book Amazon island they want. And if they want to change it or retcon it that's fine. But they aren't showing how an isolationist, sexist, chauvanistic culture suddenly became open and egalitarian.
As far as Wonder Woman's original story, the Amazons weren't a big part of that story, they didn't focus on it or develop it, it was just there behind the curtain. It was as important and as developed as Krypton in the first years of Superman. It was just there, occasionally mention, and basicly unused.
Personally, the backstory that I'd find most interesting would to show the Amazons as matriarchal, self-important, snobby, isolationist. A lot like the Vulcans in 'Enterprise', they are indeed well developed in philosophy and culture, but not an egalitarian philosophy.
Diana enters our world originally with those views, and comes into conflict with sexist, paternalistic, male dominated culture. She is antagonistic to "our" culture, but eventually finds a middle ground with emerging feminism and sees both extremes as incorrect. She has conflict and drama both with our male power structures and with her home and Amazon culture and sisters. She is caught in the middle, and gradually grows into her own person and finds a unique enlightenment that makes her a special hero, but without a natural home.
That's just me, but in any case I find Themyscira as Utopia to be boring and it doesn't make me care about the stories any more or any less, it's just a cheap construct that can't really be explored, because the writers aren't particuarly thoughtful enough to actually come up with a working Utopia, and it forces them to take a canned political philosophy and call it "correct".
The idea of the Amazons is based loosely on the ancient Greek culture. The Olympics were originally a handful of sports that were directly drawn from martial skills of the era. Elite performance was idealized. The Greeks came up with some lasting philosophy, democracy, drama, poetry, art and architecture last time I looked. But it has nothing to do with original mythology, it's just something the DC writers make up. Which is fine, but for what?
There's nothing wrong with creating whatever backstory and culture for a comic book Amazon island they want. And if they want to change it or retcon it that's fine. But they aren't showing how an isolationist, sexist, chauvanistic culture suddenly became open and egalitarian.
As far as Wonder Woman's original story, the Amazons weren't a big part of that story, they didn't focus on it or develop it, it was just there behind the curtain. It was as important and as developed as Krypton in the first years of Superman. It was just there, occasionally mention, and basicly unused.
Personally, the backstory that I'd find most interesting would to show the Amazons as matriarchal, self-important, snobby, isolationist. A lot like the Vulcans in 'Enterprise', they are indeed well developed in philosophy and culture, but not an egalitarian philosophy.
Diana enters our world originally with those views, and comes into conflict with sexist, paternalistic, male dominated culture. She is antagonistic to "our" culture, but eventually finds a middle ground with emerging feminism and sees both extremes as incorrect. She has conflict and drama both with our male power structures and with her home and Amazon culture and sisters. She is caught in the middle, and gradually grows into her own person and finds a unique enlightenment that makes her a special hero, but without a natural home.
That's just me, but in any case I find Themyscira as Utopia to be boring and it doesn't make me care about the stories any more or any less, it's just a cheap construct that can't really be explored, because the writers aren't particuarly thoughtful enough to actually come up with a working Utopia, and it forces them to take a canned political philosophy and call it "correct".
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Yeah, that's the whole point of the line; hell, that IS the line, "We are warriors, but we are (well-rounded) human beings too."
The damn thing is, nobody talks like that unless they're making a lecture. And they happen to be female humans, so the line becomes, "We are warriors, but we are women too."
And that makes you a sexist. If you believe women are better than men, that makes you a sexist, a misandrist sexist to be exact.
Nobody ever called you blindsided.
What the hell kind of bullshit is that? What makes you think we can't, apart from the biological lack of any eggs and womb. (Although, have you seen Junior? We could actually do that (apart from the ridiculous birth of course, it would have to be a c-section), and if there wasn't such a huge fuss about doing anything out of the ordinary with humans biology, to such an extent we don't even entertain the idea, we probably already would have. In fact, I'll make a prediction, that before 30 years are over, and we have nuked ourselves into oblivion, there will be the first male thatcarries a child to term.)
Sorry, but killing Maxwell Lord, made Wonder Woman the greatest hero that ever lived. Whether or not it was a straight fight, matters not. And whether he was a physical match, doesn't matter anyway. Knocking him out, wouldn't matter; Superman would still be under his control. There is not place to take him, where Superman isn't under his control. Death, was the only option, and performing the act, instead of running away and being ruled by her pride, and letting countless people die, made her greater hero than Batman and Superman could ever hope to be.
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Well that's dandy. They've reduced the Amazons to a society who are so flawed that they must take moral lessons from someone who not only betrayed her own people but is also responsible for the deaths of countless others.
Honestly, you can't convince me that Persephone is a tragic character because she isn't. Sure, I can understand why she wouldn't like her life style on the island, but why did she have choose the absolute worst way to try to escape it? Getting a lecture from her is like getting a lecture from a serial killer who says that he murdered people because he's only human. There's more to it than that, much more. Being a woman isn't a good excuse for justifying stupidity and mass murder.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Exactly where did I say anything that Persephone is some kind of good person, or that what she did isn't bad? The thing however is; there are only two other ways to escape it, suicide; or killing Hyppolita and freeing the island from the mirror so she can escape (or die trying.)
There are no other ways. In fact, it is sad that they didn't do even more with it. Have Persephone say, "You have easy talk, the gods told you you'd get a baby from them one day, you had something to look forward to, and then it happened; a nice baby handed and packaged. We had nothing."
And the ultimate answer to "We are warriors.": "Then you should be proud my queen. I'm only being a proper warrior as you've taught me to. Visualize your goal. Devise a strategy. Gain any necessary allies. Kill the opposition."
It would so perfectly highlight Hyppolita's failing, it'd be perfect, really. "We're warriors. We're warriors. We're warriors." And nothing but. She'd probably wonder how lonely all her warriors are that didn't manage to get lesbian feelings; that she essentially tortured them into doing what Persephone did, it's practically a miracle it didn't happen earlier.
And the Amazons, were never any different than that; no matter how many claims to the contrary.
Well, I don't recall a time when women told men they couldn't vote or serve in the army.
^When your country was fighting in Vietnam and needed every single soldier it could get its hands on, your government created the draft. Did it apply to women ? Of course it didn't.
Did conscription in the UK during World War II apply to women ? No. Do most countries that still enforce national service for their young people still apply that to women ? No. Who does ? Israel ? North Korea ? That's about it.
Do not ever try to suggest that women are the ones who are hard done by when it comes to military service.
Did conscription in the UK during World War II apply to women ? No. Do most countries that still enforce national service for their young people still apply that to women ? No. Who does ? Israel ? North Korea ? That's about it.
Do not ever try to suggest that women are the ones who are hard done by when it comes to military service.
It's not you I'm bashing, it's the writers. Why else do you think that the set up and delivery was meant to show she had a point?
I like that as a revision, actually.
Or just tell Hippolyta that she wants to leave. The Amazons are a free society and don't have any particular function to fill on the island (unlike in the comic, where they're guarding the gates of Hell), so there'd be no reason not to let her leave.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
The Amazons didn't even allow men to SET FOOT on their island. Do you think they got to vote?
Do you think that even women managed to become socially dominant gender they wouldn't have done the exact same thing? Hell, the Amazons of real history, DID the exact same thing.
Or recent feminists claiming equality with a smile in one sentence, and the next it's, "Men bad this, men bad thus, men bad there." There are even extreme versions of the lot who have said out right, that men should be kept in small metal cages, and only occasionally milked for their seed.
Women are no better than men; they are every bit as nasty, bitchy, and sick as a man can be. They can also be every bit as good as man can be. Hence, we are EQUAL, equally good and equally bad, no one gender has the claim to be better or worse than the other.
They didn't allow anyone on the island. Certainly, they grew very isolationist through bad experience, but, some lingering anger/suspicion aside, they've treated the men they meet with respect. They certainly aren't repressive.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
They can't leave! They're hidden from the rest of the world; that's their whole deal, and their problem. The reward that Hyppolite accepted from the gods, that's also their prison sentence!
Of course she has a point! She must have a point! If she doesn't have a point, what's the point! Just because a bad person has a point, doesn't mean he/she is no longer bad person. In fact, if bad person has a point, it makes him/her a more interesting character.
Like I said, I would have given her an even BIGGER point, or drive it home even more.
The point, is that this is Hyppolita's and the Amazon's failure, that allowed themselves to be hidden away. The point is, that Persephone is not the only one with the same feelings; they ALL have the same feelings (except maybe Hyppolita because she got a gift-wrapped baby from the gods.) The only difference between Persephone and the others is, that the others had a better strangle-hold on their hearts using duty and morals and hobbies/distractions. And Hyppolita NEVER realized it.
That's what made the drama so good, and could have been even better if Persephone had pointed out she was just being a warrior.
Yeah, wrong. There have been times when women were allowed on the island, and men were not.
And they should be repressive. Their society doesn't make much sense if they aren't.
