Wonder Woman animated DVD

[Hermiod]

Well whoever said that one incarnation of a society in comics should be the one people must accept and follow? Would you want to show your kids moments of Spiderman being a hero and going through a nice character development cycle, or show them a Spiderman who ends his marriage with the love of his life by making a deal with Satan?

MJ made that choice for them, actually. If I had children to give my comic book collection to I would show them Spider-Man, warts and all. Spider-Man is a hero. Despite the fact that being one has cost him greatly - the death of the love of his life, the end of his marriage, the loss of his unborn daughter - but he still chooses to be a hero.

What do the Amazons have to show for themselves ? They aren't good people, they aren't heroes. They are villains in the purest sense of the term. Let's not paint pretty pictures here, they are evil. Everything about the way they are presented is evil.

So, the only way women can be strong and powerful is to be evil, to murder children, to hate their brothers, fathers and sons ? I reject that.

Compare that to Marvel's equivalent of Wonder Woman - Ms. Marvel. She's had some horrible things happen to her in the past but she still rises above it. When her own title relaunched a few years ago she set out to become like she was in the House of M - the world's greatest superhero and that's quite possibly what she is.

And yet none of her story revolves around "I am woman, hear me roar" crap. So, if those hypothetical children were girls, I would love them to read her stories because they would teach those girls that to be strong and powerful doesn't mean you have to act like a man and it certainly doesn't mean you have to hate them.

There are far better and far more interesting depictions of this Amazon society. The writers of this story just chose the one that would benefit a more action oriented story than anything else.

So ? This goes beyond this little movie. The very basis of DC's interpretation of the Amazons is that they hate men. They want to destroy "man's world".

 

[Takeru]

So the moral lesson of this movie is that women are nothing without men? Great.

Don't put words into my mouth, I never said that. For me the moral lesson of this movie is that no gender is better than the other. Hera tells the amazons "You're totally awesome, here's an island for you to play perfect society!", but that doesn't mean it's true, they are just as flawed as the men they seem to blame for everything that's bad in the world.

There are far better and far more interesting depictions of this Amazon society. The writers of this story just chose the one that would benefit a more action oriented story than anything else.

No, the amazon society has always been shit, because it always excluded men. If DC would create an island full of men, who exclude women because they are dumb and useless and not even good enogh to cook the men food, do you believe anyone would even think for a second that this was anything but a misogynistic pigsty?
So why is it seen as a good thing if women are misandrists? Themyscira as it exists in the DC Universe is probably the most disgusting society on the whole planet.

The idea behind Wonder Woman as a character is good, a strong, intelligent woman that fights for equal rights (not for women's rights, equal rights!), who can be just as merciless as she an be compassionate depending on the situation, who is not bound by expectations because if her gender etc.
The problem is her background, the island full of women is absolutely retarded and probably the main reason Diana as a character never really worked. A woman from a society that's behind Afghanistan under the Taliban as far as equal rights are concerned is hardly someone to look up to.

 

[Hermiod]

^Takeru, you've hit the nail on the head. It wasn't so long ago that men weren't even allowed to set foot on the island. At least women were actually allowed in to Taliban-ruled Afghanistan without being instantly murdered even if they were treated like shit.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Considering the amount of violent misogyny in the actual world, as well as in the grand majority of fiction in both Western and Eastern culture, it's really interesting to see people get spitting mad over one single storyline (and many, many years of WW were far more misogynist than misandrist) that dares to go against that grain. Ever heard of Women in Refrigerators? Want to discuss misogyny in comics? It's rampant. Is it really any surprise then that the one story that attempts to not do that (and often fails nevertheless) has to be a little over the top?

 

[Jeyl]

Don't put words into my mouth, I never said that. For me the moral lesson of this movie is that no gender is better than the other.

Not my diagnosis.

If the moral was actually true in today's society, we'd have a lot more variety in today's works, but we don't. As I've mentioned earlier, with the exception of comic books, Wonder Woman hasn't had a solo project in 30 years. Batman has had eight theatrical movies, a couple of direct to video movies, various animated shows and at least a dozen video games. Superman has had five theatrical films, more than a couple of live action TV series including his own animated series, various video games and direct to video movies to boot. Wonder Woman? She has about, say.....1 TV series and one direct to video movie. Hardly a case of equality if our own society doesn't depict it as such.

We are no where near that moral stand point and the fact that it has to be the WOMEN who have to learn about equality and not the men defeats the whole purpose of Wonder Woman to begin with! She's supposed to represent the best at what women can do and how they can put themselves on the level even higher than Superman or Batman when people like you don't look in that direction. Unfortunately, none of today's audience wants that and your reaction to the Amazons is an example.

And no, men and women are not equal. Women are superior!

 

[Hermiod]

Considering the amount of violent misogyny in the actual world, as well as in the grand majority of fiction in both Western and Eastern culture, it's really interesting to see people get spitting mad over one single storyline (and many, many years of WW were far more misogynist than misandrist) that dares to go against that grain. Ever heard of Women in Refrigerators? Want to discuss misogyny in comics? It's rampant. Is it really any surprise then that the one story that attempts to not do that (and often fails nevertheless) has to be a little over the top?

We're discussing misandry as presented in Wonder Woman comics and direct to DVD films right now, in 2009 at a time we as paying readers and viewers can change it.

The whole "women in refrigerators" (and I still say "sidekicks in refrigerators" is a more accurate term) thing doesn't compare because the perpetrators of that violence are presented as villains. The Amazons are not. They are presented as heroes. Whenever they do anything "wrong" there's always a way out, they were misled, it was Circe or some other excuse.

Let's pick a good example of the misogyny you talk about - when Dr. Light raped Sue Dibney was he presented as a hero or a villain ? When Zatanna mind-raped Light, Batman, Catwoman and god knows who else the writers fell over themselves to make excuses. Same crime, different treatment. Do not kid yourself that it was any different. Violence towards women under any circumstances = bad. Violence against men even when completely unjustified = good. That is the DC way.

The Amazons as a people as presented in DC Comics are villains disguised as heroes with Wonder Woman as their champion. Batman is at least honest about what he is and if the Kryptonians arrived one day and started killing children in the street, Superman would die fighting them if he had to because they're his responsibility.

What was the Amazon's excuse ? That Circe misled them ? What possible lie does it take to make a good person kill a child ? They are predisposed to accept the lie because they want to kill males anyway.

These are the people you are encouraging young girls to read about and learn from.

 

[Jeyl]

The idea behind Wonder Woman as a character is good, a strong, intelligent woman that fights for equal rights (not for women's rights, equal rights!)

That is a wonderful point. Let's see if the movie portrays it as such.

Persephone: the amazon are warriors, but we are women, too.

Hmm. Maybe not. As Sarah Warn said on afterellen.com in regards to this line,

There's nothing sexist about wanting to have the option to have a family, but it is sexist to position that desire as something inherent to being a woman, rather than to just being a well-rounded human being.

 

[Hermiod]

Don't put words into my mouth, I never said that. For me the moral lesson of this movie is that no gender is better than the other.

Not my diagnosis.

If the moral was actually true in today's society, we'd have a lot more variety in today's works, but we don't. As I've mentioned earlier, with the exception of comic books, Wonder Woman hasn't had a solo project in 30 years. Batman has had eight theatrical movies, a couple of direct to video movies, various animated shows and at least a dozen video games. Superman has had five theatrical films, more than a couple of live action TV series including his own animated series, various video games and direct to video movies to boot. Wonder Woman? She has about, say.....1 TV series and one direct to video movie. Hardly a case of equality if our own society doesn't depict it as such.

The reason for that is simple popularity. Superman is an iconic character and Batman is in the top two most popular comic book characters ever. Only Spider-Man can touch him in terms of popularity.

Wonder Woman on the other hand is not nearly as popular. She's B-list compared to Superman, Batman and Spider-Man.

We are no where near that moral stand point and the fact that it has to be the WOMEN who have to learn about equality and not the men defeats the whole purpose of Wonder Woman to begin with! She's supposed to represent the best at what women can do and how they can put themselves on the level even higher than Superman or Batman when people like you don't look in that direction. Unfortunately, none of today's audience wants that and your reaction to the Amazons is an example.

And no, men and women are not equal. Women are superior!

Thanks for confirming what I suspected about you. You accept the portrayal of the Amazons in DC Comics because you agree with them. You are a misandrist yourself.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Jeyl]

Thanks for confirming what I suspected about you. You accept the portrayal of the Amazons in DC Comics because you agree with them. You are a misandrist yourself.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

What? I never said I hated men and I never said that we should be killing babies. For crying out loud, I'm a man myself dangit. Just because I think women are better than men doesn't mean I think men should be destroyed or have any of their rights taken. The only reason I'm speaking strongly on the subject here is because I'm just bored with all the male dominate heroes that we've been getting non-stop while the women roles just sit back and take the bad guy abuse.

I know women are capable of not stooping that low. Samus never stooped that low. Unfortunately, no one wants to do anything different because we have people like you who justify it with reasons like this:

The reason for that is simple popularity. Superman is an iconic character and Batman is in the top two most popular comic book characters ever. Only Spider-Man can touch him in terms of popularity.

Wonder Woman on the other hand is not nearly as popular. She's B-list compared to Superman, Batman and Spider-Man.

 

[Takeru]

Ever heard of Women in Refrigerators? Want to discuss misogyny in comics? It's rampant.

You're right, it is a problem, I won't even pretend it's not, but this thread is about Wonder Woman, not other comics. But even if we look at misogyny in other comics, misandry in Wonder Woman can't be the answer, because two wrongs don't make a right. I think Wonder Woman has the potential to be better than that, but she's not and that's sad.

We are no where near that moral stand point and the fact that it has to be the WOMEN who have to learn about equality and not the men defeats the whole purpose of Wonder Woman to begin with!

Not "the WOMEN", the amazons in Wonder Woman! And I never said the men don't have to learn as well, but it's just a cold, hard fact, that the amazon society would include men, if the amazons would see them as equal, but they obviously don't. Therefore they have no right to blab about women's rights, because they are the worst sexists on the block.

She's supposed to represent the best at what women can do and how they can put themselves on the level even higher than Superman or Batman when people like you don't look in that direction.

And she can't represent that if her society includes man? Wouldn't the message be much stronger if Diana wasn't the best among women, but the best among the women and men of Themyscira.

Unfortunately, none of today's audience wants that and your reaction to the Amazons is an example.

I am disgusted by the amazon's sexism and misandry and want Diana to come from a society where gender equality has been achieved (but the women are naturally stronger) instead. I want her to still be the best and strongest, even with a lot of men around and somehow you have the nerve to call that unfortunate? Wow, now I'm baffled, I thought that would make her a stronger character and a better role model, but apparently I'm just a dumb hick who doesn't get how awesome teh wiminz are.

And no, men and women are not equal. Women are superior!

I really hope that's a joke, if not that's probably the most sexist statement I've read in a long time. But it certainly would explain your attitude.

 

[Hermiod]

What? I never said I hated men and I never said that we should be killing babies. For crying out loud, I'm a man myself dangit. Just because I think women are better than men doesn't mean I think men should be destroyed or have any of their rights taken.

No, you're defending the portrayal of characters who do hold those beliefs as heroes. That's the issue here.

The only reason I'm speaking strongly on the subject here is because I'm just bored with all the male dominate heroes that we've been getting non-stop while the women roles just sit back and take the bad guy abuse.

I know women are capable of not stooping that low. Samus never stooped that low. Unfortunately, no one wants to do anything different because we have people like you who justify it with reasons like this:

And I already countered that. Ms. Marvel took some serious abuse early on. Did she take it ? No she certainly bloody didn't. She took it out on the perpetrators, not men in general - that's the difference.

She's still able to be a woman. She goes on dates, she sneaks games of Bejeweled when she's supposed to be working, she has fun. Then she puts on her costume, goes out and, until recently, she leads the Avengers!

The reason for that is simple popularity. Superman is an iconic character and Batman is in the top two most popular comic book characters ever. Only Spider-Man can touch him in terms of popularity.

Wonder Woman on the other hand is not nearly as popular. She's B-list compared to Superman, Batman and Spider-Man.

I thought it was clear by now that I don't work for DC and I no longer buy their comics. I have no influence over what they produce. I wish I did. Wonder Woman, like it or not, is B-List. She has never had the popularity Superman and Batman have had. I could easily complain that my favourite female character hasn't been seen in a movie.

Instead, buy Ms. Marvel every single month because she's a true female hero. You haven't been around very long so you wouldn't know about my frequent use of Ms. Marvel in my avatars and my love of the character. Guess what, it ain't because she's a hot chick in FMBs either. Two characters in comic books are special to me above all others - Spider-Man and Ms. Marvel.

And yes, if I had a daughter I'd give her Ms. Marvel comics to read.

Takeru has made a number of valid points. Wonder Woman cannot be a champion of equality because her own society is inequal and she does nothing to stop that. Theymiscria is a big old glass house and its inhabitants are throwing some pretty big stones.

 

[CaptainCanada]

I have to disagree with this, I thought the portryal of the amazons was spot on, they are misandrists! I never bought that "superior society" bullshit, no matter how much some writers and fans try to sell it. If they are so great, where are the men?

They were created as a single-sex culture by the Gods.

Now let's look at Diana, I hate when she's written as this perfect woman, who fight's for equality and tells women they can achieve anything. Realistically every woman should tell her "You're a fucking princess with superpowers and grew up in a society without men, so what makes you think you can relate to any of our problems, stupid bitch!".

How does her having powers affect her as a role model any more than Superman, whose example, we're told, is the basis for a perfect future 1000 years from now (the whole point of the Legion of Super-Heroes).

Greg Rucka's run actually introduced a villain who lobbed those same basic concerns, a woman named Veronica Cale who believed herself (a self-made millionairess born into poverty who became a brilliant scientist and businesswoman) the true "Wonder Woman", and so determined to destroy Diana (he never got to finish that arc, sadly).

Don't put words into my mouth, I never said that. For me the moral lesson of this movie is that no gender is better than the other.

The Amazons don't claim all women are better than men; they, the Amazons, are a superior culture. If you read well-written Wonder Woman comics (George Perez, Greg Rucka, for two prime examples), they treat men respectfully and open their all island to all people as an international centre of learning and culture.

No, the amazon society has always been shit, because it always excluded men.

No, they were created as Amazons; non-Amazons are excluded.

So why is it seen as a good thing if women are misandrists? Themyscira as it exists in the DC Universe is probably the most disgusting society on the whole planet.

It's not; the Amazons aren't misandrists. They have been, at various points, rather isolationist (at first because of the attack by Hercules' army and the gods' command to withdraw to Themyscira, which they got used to).

A woman from a society that's behind Afghanistan under the Taliban as far as equal rights are concerned is hardly someone to look up to.

Uh-huh. Amazons, once they get back into contact with the wider world, have been shown treating people respectfully.

The whole issue of how the Amazons related to our two-gendered society has been treated extensively in the comics, including the counter-example of an actual misandrist society (the Bana-Mighdall, from whence Artemis comes, who later had to integrate into Themysciran society and provide some of the more xenophobic elements). Hippolyta made a man an Amazon several issues ago without complaint (now, the character in question is really lame, but that's beside the point).

Actually, the current arc in WW has Zeus create a single-sex race of male Gargareans (the resurrected bodies of Ancient Greece's greatest heroes, led by Jason and Achilles) to replace the Amazons as global peacemakers.

Takeru has made a number of valid points. Wonder Woman cannot be a champion of equality because her own society is inequal and she does nothing to stop that. Theymiscria is a big old glass house and its inhabitants are throwing some pretty big stones.

Themyscira is not unequal; it's just naturally a single-gender society that has historically prided keeping its membership exclusive (which was recently breached in a minor way).

 

[Hermiod]

^I guess that is because history will show that Superman was a true hero while Wonder Woman was not. Those people hold the powerless Lois Lane in equally high regard, do they not?

 

[CaptainCanada]

^I guess that is because history will show that Superman was a true hero while Wonder Woman was not. Those people hold the powerless Lois Lane in equally high regard, do they not?

I'm not questioning that; I'm saying, Superman is a quite literal incarnation of the Overman fundamentally removed form ordinary human society, but the LOSH future has his example as the guiding light for a utopian human culture. Saying Diana can't be a hero to women because she has superpowers is holding her to a double-standard.

 

[Jeyl]

I really hope that's a joke, if not that's probably the most sexist statement I've read in a long time. But it certainly would explain your attitude.

Sexist? No. I didn't say it to be sexist, I said it because I believe it's true. For instance, I voted for Obama and not Clinton. It's not because Clinton was a woman, but because I thought Obama was a better candidate. If I was as blindsided as a sexist misandrist, why I vote for Obama?

And come on, you try nourishing a baby fetus in your stomach for nine months and giving birth. That is one dedicated endeavor that women can do that men cannot.

 

[Hermiod]

I'm not questioning that; I'm saying, Superman is a quite literal incarnation of the Overman fundamentally removed form ordinary human society, but the LOSH future has his example as the guiding light for a utopian human culture. Saying Diana can't be a hero to women because she has superpowers is holding her to a double-standard.

Sure Wonder Woman could be a hero, but she doesn't act like one and she is the representative of a nation of villains.

And come on, you try nourishing a baby fetus in your stomach for nine months and giving birth. That is one dedicated endeavor that women can do that men cannot.

We can't do that because were biologically male and thus lack the appropriate organs. It's really that simple.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Sure Wonder Woman could be a hero, but she doesn't act like one and she is the representative of a nation of villains.

1. How is she not acting like a hero?
2. The Amazons are not villains; Amazons Attack was a godawful piece of writing by someone who didn't know the first thing about the franchise, and has been more or less ignored since; we're in the process of getting the Amazons back (though Zeus just wants to send them all to the Elysian Fields as a reward, which obviously won't happen/take).

 

[Hermiod]

1. How is she not acting like a hero?

Well, for a start, even Batman would not have murdered Maxwell Lord. How many times has Batman been in a position to finally kill the Joker knowing how many lives he would eventually save by doing so ?

She is a soldier, not a superhero. She's something akin to Jack Bauer. Is Bauer a hero ? No, he's a necessary evil and he is shown to hate himself for his actions.

Wolverine or the Punisher are also good comparisons. They kill when they deem that a person does not deserve to live. They have their own view of morality that doesn't fit with being a true hero.

2. The Amazons are not villains; Amazons Attack was a godawful piece of writing by someone who didn't know the first thing about the franchise, and has been more or less ignored since; we're in the process of getting the Amazons back (though Zeus just wants to send them all to the Elysian Fields as a reward, which obviously won't happen/take).

Their entire history is based on misandry. It is clear that they blame all men for the actions of Heracles' and his men.

And what exactly is Zeus rewarding them for ?

 

[Jeyl]

Well, for a start, even Batman would not have murdered Maxwell Lord. How many times has Batman been in a position to finally kill the Joker knowing how many lives he would eventually save by doing so?

That's why she's so important. She can do the things Batman and Superman cannot bring themselves to do. It's not that she wanted to kill him, but she had to in order to save Superman and Batman. Sometimes things never go the way you want them to, and sometimes following them to the extremes can make things worse. She decided to act and she did it without hesitation or regret. She accepted the consequences, and what did she get for it? Scrutiny from your so-called 'true heros' who are still alive thanks to her.

 

[Hermiod]

Well, for a start, even Batman would not have murdered Maxwell Lord. How many times has Batman been in a position to finally kill the Joker knowing how many lives he would eventually save by doing so?

That's why she's so important. She can do the things Batman and Superman cannot bring themselves to do. It's not that she wanted to kill him, but she had to in order to save Superman and Batman. Sometimes things never go the way you want them to, and sometimes following them to the extremes can make things worse. She decided to act and she did it without hesitation and regret. She accepted the consequences, and did she get for it? Scrutiny from your so-called 'true hero'.

That's because Superman is a hero and she isn't. She may be an interesting character, she may be working for the forces of good but she is not a hero. She is not someone you should tell kids to look up to.

She did not kill Lord in a straight fight. Lord was restrained with her unbreakable lasso and she snapped his neck. He was already not a physical match for her anyway. Why not knock him out and take him somewhere where he is not a threat ?

She was scruitinised because all members of the League deserved scrutiny knowing what Zatanna did to Dr. Light, Batman, Catwoman and possibly many others.