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Wonder Woman animated DVD

CaptainCanada

Admiral
Admiral
So, the latest of DC's direct-to-DVD animated projects is out, and, since I generally play the part of this board's opinionated Wonder Woman fan, here we go.

I've made no secret in the past (nor has most of her fandom) how badly Timm and co. botched the character in JLU, so I was apprehensive of how they'd handle it here, particularly when you had the screenwriter no less saying he knew absolutely nothing about the character before being assigned to write the project. Most of the reviews from the debut at NYCC were positive (often very).

Pros (in general):

- The animation is beautiful; by far the best stuff in any of the DVDs they've done so far. The Wonder Woman design is appreciably Greek, and many other characters, such as Artemis, are rendered more or less perfectly.
- It's pretty funny.
- Pretty bloody, too; the battle scenes are close to flawless.

Stuff they did better than JL/U:

- There's a more serious take on the character's mythology here, both in terms of the actual Greek mythology and Themysciran society, which in this case is inhabited by some actual characters with more than one dimension, rather than a bunch of drones lorded over by Diana's undeveloped mother.
- They haven't omitted most of her origin this time, or outright changed it.

Cons:

And now we arrive at the parts of the story where the writers are asked to really interpret the character, and, once again, they trip (though on the whole I'd say not as badly). Sigh.

- The Amazons. Double sigh. Look, I know (moreso than most, even) that Wonder Woman as a character has had a lot of different takes over her 70-year history, but in the broad scheme of things, there are in fact thematic elements that have been consistent from Marston onward. One of these, and really chief to the whole character, is that the Amazons are a superior and enlightened society who prize culture and the arts as high as martial prowess, love peace, and are meant to bring it to the wider world and save it. Get that through your skulls, Timm and co: superior society. Not "bloodthirsty bitch Xena clones" and "strawman feminist". Because that's more or less what they are here, just like in JL/U. They're aggressively misandrist, to a point that they'e never been in the comics outside of abortions like Amazons Attack. If anything, they learn a valuable lesson on tolerance from Steve Trevor. They've got no philosophy or higher ideas here.
- Speaking of Steve Trevor, he's back in his Silver Age form, ie, sexist cad. Why do writers keep thinking a feminist hero should fall in love with a cad who is constantly making jokey, piggish advances? I mean, if you want him as a love interest instead of the Perez version, at least go with Perez's take on his personality: Post-Crisis Steve was a competent, gentlemanly fellow.
- Diana's power levels; getting the thing that most people will talk about out of the way, she can't fly, which is lame (because creators are all obsessed with that goddamn stupid jet), but not insurmountable; the bigger issue is that her power levels are wildly inconsistent. When she first meets Steve, they get into a fist fight, at which he, in another unbelievable moment, actually holds his own for a bit, both in terms of martial arts proficiency and knocking her around. In other scenes (such as the clip they've shown online of her fighting Deimos), she's a mid-tier bruiser, throwing guys through walls and punching them across the room.
- Setting aside these things (which, apart from power levels, are subjective, I suppose), parts of the plot/character-interaction are just baffling. Consider, after winning the Contest while in disguise to avoid her mother's ban on entering, Diana unmasks before the crowd and her mother, the Queen, who...has no reaction to this, whatsoever. That's a pivotal moment in the story, but Hippolyta just blankly says okay, congratulations.
 
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Ugh, your criticisms are sharp, and all the sorts of things that would bug me as a lifelong WW fan. The issue of the Amazons as a superior society has been problematic for many writers, largely because they just want to reduce a superhero story to simple black and white conflicts. To deal with the cultural clash of a small society with superior mores (even without throwing in the gender issues) meeting a much larger, technological superior culture is just too subtle and complex for most superhero scribes - even though it has limitless possibilities for your basic fisticuffs tales.

And I'm with you on writers' nostalgic love of the stupid jet ...

Someone told me there were some interesting extras on the DVD. Is that true? If not, I'm not sure I'm going to be picking this up.
 
Consider, after winning the Contest while in disguise to avoid her mother's ban on entering, Diana unmasks before the crowd and her motehr, the Queen, who...has no reaction to this, whatsoever. That's a pivotal moment in the story, but Hippolyta just blankly says okay, congratulations.


Yeah, I wondered about this too. The animators could not have over-looked this scene so I assumed Hippolyta's non-reaction was her reaction. I chalk it up to the animation not being subtle enough to convey nuance.

My favorite line - "Sir, it's a bunch of armor-clad super-models!"
 
Someone told me there were some interesting extras on the DVD. Is that true? If not, I'm not sure I'm going to be picking this up.
There are certainly a lot of them in the two-disk version; I haven't had time to watch them yet.

Regarding the technology issue, some versions of the Amazons (such as Marston's, and, by the end of the post-Crisis era, Jiminez and Rucka's) had super-advanced tech (actually, that's another thing about the DVD; the Amazons haven't advanced a day beyond the Bronze Age...but they have an invisible jet. There's no explanation for how they built it. It's just there).

One other thing, which I forgot to put in my first review: Timm's best work (ie, most of it) shows audiences the core of his heroes, what makes them unique and awesome as characters. Jelenic, the writer, mentioned something along these lines in his interviews: when talking about Hippolyta, he described her as "almost Wonder Woman, but she isn, which leads you to the question of why isn't she Wonder Woman? What is is about her and Diana that makes Diana Wonder Woman?"

Jelenic never answers his own question. The war with Ares ultimately requires of Diana nothing that her mother couldn't have done, or Artemis (and not just because the Amazons all have the same powers here); absolutely anybody can use the Lasso of Truth here (indeed, it's Hippolyta's), and the defeat of Ares comes when
Diana kills him with her sword.

Ooooh, nobody else could have done that. Except they can, and they do.

The contrast with George Perez's work in Gods & Mortals is just jarring here; Perez and later writers (such as Byrne, whose work on the character I find problematic in a lot of respects, did a lot of good in this respect) connect Diana's lasso with something inherent in her character, her devotion to Truth. We Perez's Diana faced down the God of War, she couldn't defeat him physically; instead, she realized that that wouldn't work, and instead she uses the lasso to show him that if he gets his wish to unleash ultimate war on the world in the nuclear age, he'll destroy the world, and thus all his worshippers, and, ultimately, he and the other gods will die too. That's something that nobody else could have done; that's why it was crucial that Wonder Woman save the world. Superman would have failed there; Batman would have failed; the rest of the JLA would have failed. It's Diana's wisdom (sufficient to outreason a god) and her special truth power that save the day.

I mean, it's great that they depict her as a great combatant, but that's the bare minimum for any superhero; we go a bit further here by having her and the other Amazons unapologetically use lethal force (suck on that, Geoff Johns), which is a bonus. But, fundamentally, the creators' answer here for what makes Wonder Woman cool and unique as a superhero is that she beats people up real good. The lasso is just an accessory that they use as fodder for jokes about people telling the truth a la Liar Liar, rather than something that says something profound about her.
 
- The Amazons. Double sigh. Look, I know (moreso than most, even) that Wonder Woman as a character has had a lot of different takes over her 70-year history, but in the broad scheme of things, there are in fact thematic elements that have been consistent from Marston onward. One of these, and really chief to the whole character, is that the Amazons are a superior and enlightened society who prize culture and the arts as high as martial prowess, love peace, and are meant to bring it to the wider world and save it. Get that through your skulls, Timm and co: superior society. Not "bloodthirsty bitch Xena clones" and "strawman feminist". Because that's more or less what they are here, just like in JL/U. They're aggressively misandrist, to a point that they'e never been in the comics outside of abortions like Amazons Attack. If anything, they learn a valuable lesson on tolerance from Steve Trevor. They've got no philosophy or higher ideas here.

Thanks for this. I was actually thinking about watching this too. DC's apology for something comic books never actually did wrong has spread to their animated stories too, I see.
 
The contrast with George Perez's work in Gods & Mortals is just jarring here; Perez and later writers (such as Byrne, whose work on the character I find problematic in a lot of respects, did a lot of good in this respect) connect Diana's lasso with something inherent in her character, her devotion to Truth. We Perez's Diana faced down the God of War, she couldn't defeat him physically; instead, she realized that that wouldn't work, and instead she uses the lasso to show him that if he gets his wish to unleash ultimate war on the world in the nuclear age, he'll destroy the world, and thus all his worshippers, and, ultimately, he and the other gods will die too. That's something that nobody else could have done; that's why it was crucial that Wonder Woman save the world. Superman would have failed there; Batman would have failed; the rest of the JLA would have failed. It's Diana's wisdom (sufficient to outreason a god) and her special truth power that save the day.

I mean, it's great that they depict her as a great combatant, but that's the bare minimum for any superhero; we go a bit further here by having her and the other Amazons unapologetically use lethal force (suck on that, Geoff Johns), which is a bonus. But, fundamentally, the creators' answer here for what makes Wonder Woman cool and unique as a superhero is that she beats people up real good. The lasso is just an accessory that they use as fodder for jokes about people telling the truth a la Liar Liar, rather than something that says something profound about her.

What a nice analysis. Ever read JLA - A League of One? It's one of my favorite WW stories (which I bequeathed to a trouble 9 year old girl in the hopes that it's messages would give her some guidance). The issue of Diana's committment to truth in relation to her own character is paramount to the story.
 
What a nice analysis. Ever read JLA - A League of One? It's one of my favorite WW stories (which I bequeathed to a trouble 9 year old girl in the hopes that it's messages would give her some guidance). The issue of Diana's committment to truth in relation to her own character is paramount to the story.
League of One is quite good; the ritual she does with the lasso is a really neat idea, something I'd like to see touched on again in the future. Has a very fairy tale-ish overtone; as with the Perez story, highlights the importance of truth to the character.

Another such moment is Mark Waid's in his JLA run, where multi-dimensional aliens split the JLA into their superhero and "secret" personas, which doesn't work on Diana because she is an integrated whole (or was, anyway).
 
Until the JL animated series I didn't even know Wonder Woman could fly.

Too much Superfriends and Lynda Carter I guess.
 
I loved it. It was incredibly funny especially Nathan Fillion as Steve Trevor. I don't mind him as a womanizer because it added a lot of levity which has always beenmy problem with WW.

The opening battle is fantastic. Great action, so brutal. They were definitely inspired by 300. The other action scenes were DC/JLU typical. But the strength for me was the characters. Artemis...badass. The trouble with her and her bookworm sister Alexa was neat. Persephone was another good character.

What really worked for me was the screenplay, which is rife with one-liners.

I might end up buying this which is something I never do for DC animated stuff. It's lightyears better than superman doomsday. I give it an A- grade.
 
Jeyl here with a few notes regarding this movie. I mis-posted this in a different forum so I decided to bring it here.

Before I begin, let me just start out by saying that the only Direct to Video (DTV) animated movie I ever bought of the DC universe was Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker UNCUT. Everything else that came out I had no interest in seeing. Not the new Justice League, not Superman Doomsday or even Batman: Gotham Knight. It just wasn't my forte.

The most common problem I have with Super Hero movies these days is that they're so male focused that I'm practically bored. The Dark Knight played a big part in that when they reduced essentially ALL the female characters to either being unrealistically helpless (Rachel), cowering peons who cannot be trusted (Barbara Gordon) and bad decision making cops (Ramirez). And with this being one of the most successful films of all time, this will likely not change.

So when I heard that they were making a Wonder Woman movie, a lot of thoughts came pouring into my head. The obvious one was "About goddang time!" Wonder Woman outside of the comic book medium has always been trapped in the Justice League shows and hasn't had her own solo outing since the bloody 70s. Heck, even in "The Batman" when the JL is introduced as it's members, she's not only absent, there isn't any female presence at all. Wonder Woman is supposed to represent what women can do outside of their 'house-wife/secretary/love interest' role but hasn't been in anything outside of being sandwiched between Batman and Superman.

So I was pretty psyched about this movie. Seriously. When I heard it's announcement sometime last year when Gotham Knight was released, March was too far away. Now that it's out and I have watched it, I have a few things to say.

1. It's too quick. 74 minutes is a very short time frame to get used to a character as big as Wonder Woman. While the film sticks true to her creation origin (Being formed out of sand/clay and being blessed by the gods), we immediately cut to her as an adult. Call me a slow pace lover, but I wish the film spent at least five minutes of Diana growing up as a child and into adulthood. After all, Hippolyta wanted a daughter and now that she has one, we don't have any genuine development between her and her daughter. It's one of those character gaps I would have liked to have seen instead of a five minute jet fighter attack.

2. The use of the ™. When you show us the title to Wonder Woman in a nice, stylized animated fashion, DO NOT PUT THE ™ AT THE END!. Yes, you own the characters, but you shouldn't be reminding us of this when we're trying to watch the movie they're in! Can you imagine if the new Star Trek movie will have the title read like this: STAR TREK™. It's selfish and It's a mood killer, plain and simple.

3. Steve Trevor. Nathon Fillion did an excellent job here. He's a darn good actor and a very good voice performer. Unfortunately his character was a bit over-the-top and preachy. For instance, Diana has the senses to block several arrows at the same time, lift heavy objects with perfect ease, out smart a heavily trained amazon warrior, yet she comes off as being equally matched to Steve when they fight?..... I don't think so. And his whole shouting speech about how the Amazons abandoned man and how they're overly prejudiced just made him off to be a douche bag. This is the guy who tried to get Diana drunk at a bar so he could take advantage of her, and he's the one shouting that her view points are wrong? If there was to be an understanding curve to Diana's character, she should have figured this stuff out on her own, because that's what strong characters do. With Steve shouting and lecturing in front of her (Did I mention she's recovering from her injuries?) just makes her out to be more dependent than self-dependent. Did I mention that he comes to save Wonder Woman from danger and not vice-versa? Now, I'm saying that Wonder Woman can't use a bit of help, but she's the only one in need of it in the whole dang movie!

And CaptainCanada, great point about the Amazons.
 
Did you just spend an entire paragraph complaining about the "TM" trademark symbol in the title? What is this, the Monk™ BBS?
 
Wow, Captain Canada, I... kinda hate this movie now. :P

Seriously though, your criticisms are quite valid, and not being the best informed WW fan I had not thought of a lot of it. Cripes.
 
I enjoyed the film, but at the same time I'm not as steeped in Wonder Woman's history as many of you are. I think most of the criticisms you guys had were valid and puts the film in a new light for me. Now I realize that it could've been much more. I did enjoy seeing Artemis though. I always liked her short stint as Wonder Woman.
 
- The Amazons. Double sigh. Look, I know (moreso than most, even) that Wonder Woman as a character has had a lot of different takes over her 70-year history, but in the broad scheme of things, there are in fact thematic elements that have been consistent from Marston onward. One of these, and really chief to the whole character, is that the Amazons are a superior and enlightened society who prize culture and the arts as high as martial prowess, love peace, and are meant to bring it to the wider world and save it. Get that through your skulls, Timm and co: superior society. Not "bloodthirsty bitch Xena clones" and "strawman feminist". Because that's more or less what they are here, just like in JL/U. They're aggressively misandrist, to a point that they'e never been in the comics outside of abortions like Amazons Attack. If anything, they learn a valuable lesson on tolerance from Steve Trevor. They've got no philosophy or higher ideas here.
I have to disagree with this, I thought the portryal of the amazons was spot on, they are misandrists! I never bought that "superior society" bullshit, no matter how much some writers and fans try to sell it. If they are so great, where are the men? With all their wisdom and knowledge, have they never thought about the fact that a society that excludes on gender completely is anything but perfect? Have they never considered that there are some men who could teach them a thing or two about philsosophy, tactics or whatever? They can't even use the "Men are too aggressive" argument, because in that case at least half of the amazons should be kicked out.
The only way to portray these amazons in a believable way is to show them as what they are: Misandrist bitches with a superiority complex, who may be strong and educated, but ultimately ignorant and flawed. It was important that the film showed Steve Trevor teaching them a lesson, because if they already knew, if they were so perfect in every way, their society wouldn't make sense, in that case they woul have achieved true gender equality a long time ago.

Now let's look at Diana, I hate when she's written as this perfect woman, who fight's for equality and tells women they can achieve anything.:rolleyes: Realistically every woman should tell her "You're a fucking princess with superpowers and grew up in a society without men, so what makes you think you can relate to any of our problems, stupid bitch!".

That's why I think this new movie was awesome, the amazons were not perfect and they did not live in a paradise, as much as they wanted to believe it.

If I had to reimagine Wonder Woman, the first thing I'd do away with would be the stupid "only women" idea, the gods and every kind of superpower would also disappear completely. Themyscira would be a superior society, in which men and women achieved equality where it was possible, absolute equality is only prevented by biological hindrances, but that's just a fact of life and nothing Themycirans make a fuss about. The main difference to our world would be the fact that themysciran women are naturally stronger and faster than men, that's why the amazons (their elite warriors) are mostly women. However, there would be a few male amazons, because this Themyscirans actually practice what they preach, if you really want it, you can achieve anything. A Diana from that society could criticize others without looking like a condescending cow.

The message she brings to the world would be "Look what we achieved, you can do that too, you just have to want it and work together". That's why she can't have superpowers, the other humans couldn't relate to her or her people and everything she says would be answered with "Well, if we had your powers ...".
 
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^You just summed up everything I've been saying about DC's portrayal of the Amazons for years.

I would have used Infinite or Final Crisis to eliminate them entirely. Make Diana the last of her kind and make her live in the real world.

As they're presented now, they're a race of dangerous barbarians who are a threat to civilised society. Their entire culture is based on misandry, they have no qualities that can possibly redeem that. Is that what we want to teach little girls reading this ? The only way men and women can co-exist is if one destroys the other ?
 
That's why I think this new movie was awesome, the amazons were not perfect and they did not live in a paradise, as much as they wanted to believe it.

If I had to reimagine Wonder Woman, the first thing I'd do away with, is the stupid "only women" idea. Themyscira would be a superior society, in which men and women achieved equality where it was possible, absolute equality is only prevented by biological hindrances, but that's just a fact of life and nothing Themycirans make a fuss about.

So the moral lesson of this movie is that women are nothing without men? Great.
 
So the moral lesson of this movie is that women are nothing without men? Great.

No, the moral lesson of the entire concept of DC's Amazons is that women are the superior race and men should be wiped out. This goes beyond this little DVD.

This is disgusting, unashamed misandry. These are people who marched through Washington DC murdering children. Do you think these people are heroes ? People to be idolised ? Good role models for young women ?

How can the Amazons even know a damned thing about "mans world" when most of them have never even met one ?
 
So the moral lesson of this movie is that women are nothing without men? Great.

No, the moral lesson of the entire concept of DC's Amazons is that women are the superior race and men should be wiped out. This goes beyond this little DVD.

This is disgusting, unashamed misandry. These are people who marched through Washington DC murdering children. Do you think these people are heroes ? People to be idolised ? Good role models for young women ?

How can the Amazons even know a damned thing about "mans world" when most of them have never even met one ?

Well whoever said that one incarnation of a society in comics should be the one people must accept and follow? Would you want to show your kids moments of Spiderman being a hero and going through a nice character development cycle, or show them a Spiderman who ends his marriage with the love of his life by making a deal with Satan?

There are far better and far more interesting depictions of this Amazon society. The writers of this story just chose the one that would benefit a more action oriented story than anything else.
 
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