Wonder why they stopped keeping track of runabouts

[t_smitts]

Maybe it mattered less once the Defiant supplanted the runabouts as the crew's primary means of transportation, but it seems like they were pretty diligent about keeping track of which runabouts were lost and about identifying their replacements fairly quickly, but from the fifth season on, they didn't seem to bother with it.

-As of "Emissary", DS9 was assigned three runabouts: the Rio Grande, the Yangtzee Kiang, and the Ganges.

-In season 1, the Yangtzee Kiang crashes, and is replaced by the Orinoco in season 2.

-In season 2, the Ganges is destroyed by the T'Lani, and is replaced by the Mekong in the following episode.

-In season 3, an unnamed runabout (presumed to be the Mekong) is abandoned during the battle with the Jem'Hadar and is replaced by the Rubicon later that season.

-In season 4, the Orinoco is destroyed by the True Way, and is replaced by the Yukon later that season.

-We also know that at some point no later than late season 4, DS9 was assigned a fourth runabout (the Volga).

From season 5 on, things get a great deal murkier. A runabout was destroyed by the Jem'Hadar in "The Ship". I assumed it was the Rubicon, since the Rio Grande, Volga, and Yukon were all accounted for in "By Inferno's Light", and that the unnamed Runabout that our heroes escaped from the Dominion prison camp is was its replacement. Unfortunately, "One Little Ship" shot that theory to hell, so we don't know the name of that ship.

A runabout may or may not have been destroyed in "Nor the Battle to the Strong", and one was definitely destroyed in "Empok Nor", but we don't know the name of either, nor its replacement.

Season 6 introduced the Shenandoah and season 7 the Gander, but we don't know which of the above runabouts they were replacing (the Gander could also have been a replacement for the Shenandoah itself, which was abandoned in "Valiant") or even if they were replacements at all. It's quite possible that as DS9's importance grew, more runabouts were needed for various functions.

As I said, the runabouts tended to be treated more like shuttles in later seasons, and it's a pity they didn't keep better track of them after a while.

 

[Timo]

Perhaps so - but OTOH their increasing numbers could reflect the increasing importance of the station. I mean, something should!

Sure, Starfleet installed the big guns, but it never seemed to assign Sisko any more staff, give him a well-defined force of defensive starships (okay, the station needs those like a tiger needs pajamas), or otherwise establish the elevated status.

Our rare glimpse into a runabout hangar in "In the Pale Moonlight" suggests the station could easily hold three such craft per each of the six hangars. No doubt some of those spaces are dedicated to other purposes altogether, and some to visiting craft, but we could assume more than three craft at just about any point of the station's history. Even in the evacuation of "Visionary", we could be missing six of the nine runabouts or whatever...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I need to study this post, I'm going to a Star Trek trivia night this Saturday.

I never knew the runabouts were even tracked and the only one I could have named is the Rio Grande.

 

[Reaper63]

I'd definitely vote for DS9 having more then the usual 3 Runabouts by the time Season 7 came around. With the number of times they had to abandon the Station, and had to use Runabouts to transfer station personnel away, there is no way 3 or 4 Runabouts and the Defiant could evac everyone when the Dominion took the station.

 

[t_smitts]

Perhaps so - but OTOH their increasing numbers could reflect the increasing importance of the station. I mean, something should!

Uhhh.... that's what I said.

I'd definitely vote for DS9 having more then the usual 3 Runabouts by the time Season 7 came around. With the number of times they had to abandon the Station, and had to use Runabouts to transfer station personnel away, there is no way 3 or 4 Runabouts and the Defiant could evac everyone when the Dominion took the station.

DS9 *did* have more than 3 runabouts by the time of the episode "By Inferno's Light" in season 5. That episode accounted for four. As I said, there was the runabout that they escaped from the prison camp. Plus the Rio Grande, Volga, and Yukon were all mentioned by name.

It's quite possible they had even more than that, but there's no evidence one way or the other.

 

[od0_ital]

If you really wanted to make your own head explode, you would keep track of the shuttles used on Star Trek: Voyager.

 

[kkt]

Perhaps so - but OTOH their increasing numbers could reflect the increasing importance of the station. I mean, something should!

Sure, Starfleet installed the big guns, but it never seemed to assign Sisko any more staff, give him a well-defined force of defensive starships (okay, the station needs those like a tiger needs pajamas), or otherwise establish the elevated status.

What are Worf and the Defiant, chopped liver?

 

[Timo]

Basically, Worf never found a place on the station, and went to live on the Defiant instead. So now Sisko is more undermanned than ever: his stationside staff stays the same, and he also has an undermanned starship to worry about...

Having a recurring rather than regular addition to the staff worked just fine with Primmin and later Eddington. Why not do more of that?

A recurring Bajoran staff member, rather than a semi-adversary like Winn or Bareil, would have been fun. They gave up on those after getting what they wanted of O'Brien's Bajoran assistant in "In the Hands of the Prophets", though, even when they had to swap the character a couple of times.

A recurring Defiant officer would have lent credence to the concept of increased assets at Sisko's disposal. A replacement for Eddington would also have been logical, of course, but dramatically there wasn't room for a third "security" character...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

A recurring Defiant officer would have lent credence to the concept of increased assets at Sisko's disposal. A replacement for Eddington would also have been logical, of course, but dramatically there wasn't room for a third "security" character...

Timo Saloniemi

I don't think it would have been too onerous. By season 5, Worf is clearly dividing his time between the station and Martok. If he had a stronger relationship with Admiral Ross, it would have looked like he was doing more of the strategic planning rather than being the security officer--firing weapons,etc. Though like you've said, the bigger missed opportunity was not developing the Bajoran staff and crew.

 

[t_smitts]

If you really wanted to make your own head explode, you would keep track of the shuttles used on Star Trek: Voyager.

Ugh. Uh-uh. That way lies madness. I think they lost more shuttles than anyone and never even tried to address it. Honestly, it was like they were thumbing their nose at us about it.

Basically, Worf never found a place on the station, and went to live on the Defiant instead. So now Sisko is more undermanned than ever: his stationside staff stays the same, and he also has an undermanned starship to worry about...

Worf still WORKED on DS9, he just lived on the Defiant. I don't think the Defiant was ever suggested to be understaffed, though they were sometimes rather inconsistent with who did what on board.

Having a recurring rather than regular addition to the staff worked just fine with Primmin and later Eddington. Why not do more of that?

A recurring Bajoran staff member, rather than a semi-adversary like Winn or Bareil, would have been fun. They gave up on those after getting what they wanted of O'Brien's Bajoran assistant in "In the Hands of the Prophets", though, even when they had to swap the character a couple of times.

A recurring Defiant officer would have lent credence to the concept of increased assets at Sisko's disposal. A replacement for Eddington would also have been logical, of course, but dramatically there wasn't room for a third "security" character...

Timo Saloniemi

When was Bareil a "semi-adversary"?

Seriously, though, I don't see how anyone can accuse DS9 of having too few characters.

I doubt they would've introduced a Bajoran crew member for the sake of having a Bajoran crew member. If it served the story's purpose to have a Bajoran crew member who spoke lines, they would've written one into an episode (as they did with Neela in season 1). If this was someone who could be used in future episode in a sort of O'Brien-on-TNG capacity, they might've written said character into future episodes, but really, there's not too many episodes that would've been significantly improved by having a Bajoran junior officer report something to O'Brien or Kira.

Primmin served a purpose of being a source of conflict for Odo. I'm not sure why they didn't use him more, but my understanding was Eddington was supposed to serve the same purpose (of course, they ended up taking him a very different direction).

 

[LeadHead]

The number of runabouts assigned to DS9 did definitely increase over time. Also the starfleet presence in the region increased. By the time the war started, gone were the days that DS9 was a backwater outpost far from direct starfleet contact.

It didn't bother me that they didn't keep track of them after a certain point. The Defiant was the primary vessel for off station missions and the Rotarran was also used quite a bit.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Primmin served a purpose of being a source of conflict for Odo. I'm not sure why they didn't use him more, but my understanding was Eddington was supposed to serve the same purpose (of course, they ended up taking him a very different direction).

Although a security officer, Primmin was there to be "the Chief" when O'Brien wasn't present. Colm Meaney had film commitments in the first season that were difficult to schedule around, and with a short season, producers were afraid fans wouldn't see him as part of the main cast. Primmin was created as a role for someone with a similar visage to wear the gold shirt and play a type of everyman, though one different from O'Brien. After the first season, Primmin wasn't necessary.

 

[kkt]

I'm sure if a shuttle gets destroyed, they get new ones delivered. It's not exciting enough that it would have to be mentioned on the air.

They didn't keep track of the names because they ran out of rivers They need to be recognizable to most of the audience and not confused with states, territories, or countries. For example, Mississippi or Ohio would have confusing associations for many of the audience.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I'd definitely vote for DS9 having more then the usual 3 Runabouts by the time Season 7 came around. With the number of times they had to abandon the Station, and had to use Runabouts to transfer station personnel away, there is no way 3 or 4 Runabouts and the Defiant could evac everyone when the Dominion took the station.

I would assume in an emergency evacuation, that any civilian ships currently present on the station (of which there are certainly always many) would also be required to take as many people as they could.

 

[MikeS]

I'm sure if a shuttle gets destroyed, they get new ones delivered. It's not exciting enough that it would have to be mentioned on the air.

They didn't keep track of the names because they ran out of rivers They need to be recognizable to most of the audience and not confused with states, territories, or countries. For example, Mississippi or Ohio would have confusing associations for many of the audience.

Ran out of rivers?

You realise how many rivers there are across the world? They could destroy two runabouts in every episode of the series and not have run out.

Off the top of my head - Clyde, Tyne, Mersey, Thames, Tamar, Rhine, Rhone, Olga, Wisla, Nile... I'm not even trying.

 

[MacLeod]

Amazon, Colorado to name two others

 

[Cpt. Kyle Amasov]

DS9 had six landing pads. Besides the fact that nobody ever asked why the station had them anyway (we never saw or heard of any Cardassian runabout, and their size was just perfect for a Starfleet runabout), there is no reason to assume that the station did not get an additional three runabouts during the Klingon war or the Dominion War. There's no reason to assume Starfleet deliberately wanted to keep the number at three. And to be honest, since the station neither had a "normal" shuttlebay as far as we know, I wonder why they didn't supply the station with the maximum number of runabouts from the start?

Even if the other three landing pads were not working in the beginning of the show, I'm sure by the time of WotW, when DS9 got the weapons refit, they solved the issue.

 

[Timo]

we never saw or heard of any Cardassian runabout

Of course, the Cardassians would have removed those when they abandoned the station. But we may speculate that Cardassian craft of that size would be less capable, and less likely to be found in deep space: the hangars of a space station hanging in orbit above an occupied world might be the only place where to spot such things.

and their size was just perfect for a Starfleet runabout

Well, the pad is the right size for the runabout in the originally intended scale of the station. When shot in the close company of known starships, though, the station was scaled up to at least double the original size - meaning the runabouts aren't 23 meters long, but more like fifty or sixty! Which makes O'Brien and Bashir about four meters tall when they stand in that doorway prop.

We may speculate about poultry and ova here: the Danube class runabout is a new thing when the show premiers (e.g. "Paradise" has dialogue to this effect). The ever-resourceful Starfleet might have built these things specifically for Sisko to use, with external dimensions tailored to fit the garage...

And to be honest, since the station neither had a "normal" shuttlebay as far as we know, I wonder why they didn't supply the station with the maximum number of runabouts from the start?

The station had nothing but bays initially, every other functional thing having been thrashed and scuttled. So yes, there should have been no problem with jam-packing the six landing pads in the habitat ring with runabouts and putting the fifty shuttles and two hundred work pods in the empty cargo bays...

But how many runabouts could Sisko find use for? Especially at the start, where he was supposed to just sit in orbit around Bajor and command a very small crew that had few duties outside the station? Even after the wormhole was found, Sisko was not put in charge of exploring it or the Gamma Quadrant; his auxiliary craft needs might not have gone up markedly, and whatever extra logistics the new location and role demanded, Starfleet probably felt would be better met with larger vessels such as those Bajoran transport ships so often visiting the station.

We don't know what other auxiliaries the station carried besides the runabouts and the Defiant, apart from the workbee we see in the opening credits. There's a mention of a missing shuttle in one early episode, though, part of Sisko's "to do" list for the day - I can't find the reference at the moment.

Of course, the station had "shuttles" coming and going all the time, but in the sense of shuttle flights, without specific mention of the type of craft being used. Every time we did see a shuttle flight not involving a runabout, it was a largish Bajoran vessel or a Sydney class transport.

Even if the other three landing pads were not working in the beginning of the show, I'm sure by the time of WotW, when DS9 got the weapons refit, they solved the issue.

Or then the refit meant that the bays had to be converted into ammo magazines or coolant tanks or spaces for nadion rechargers.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cpt. Kyle Amasov]

Of course, the Cardassians would have removed those when they abandoned the station. But we may speculate that Cardassian craft of that size would be less capable, and less likely to be found in deep space: the hangars of a space station hanging in orbit above an occupied world might be the only place where to spot such things.
Well, the pad is the right size for the runabout in the originally intended scale of the station. When shot in the close company of known starships, though, the station was scaled up to at least double the original size - meaning the runabouts aren't 23 meters long, but more like fifty or sixty! Which makes O'Brien and Bashir about four meters tall when they stand in that doorway prop.

Apparently, the Hideki class was reused as a scaled-down Cardassian shuttle late on the show, as per EAS. Could be their runabout. In cunjunction with the size issue of the station, we could assume that they fit into the bay.

We may speculate about poultry and ova here: the Danube class runabout is a new thing when the show premiers (e.g. "Paradise" has dialogue to this effect). The ever-resourceful Starfleet might have built these things specifically for Sisko to use, with external dimensions tailored to fit the garage...

Given the registries, the Danube may not be brand new by the time Terok Nor became DS9, but they could be an uncommon sight. That TNG episode where Picard and crew used the runabout - I was under the impression that they implied that by that time, at least the Enterprise had her own runabout(s) as well. And it does make sense to have a long-range auxiliary craft if you're going on deep space missions or are in command of a deep space starbase.

The station had nothing but bays initially, every other functional thing having been thrashed and scuttled. So yes, there should have been no problem with jam-packing the six landing pads in the habitat ring with runabouts and putting the fifty shuttles and two hundred work pods in the empty cargo bays...

But how many runabouts could Sisko find use for? Especially at the start, where he was supposed to just sit in orbit around Bajor and command a very small crew that had few duties outside the station? Even after the wormhole was found, Sisko was not put in charge of exploring it or the Gamma Quadrant; his auxiliary craft needs might not have gone up markedly, and whatever extra logistics the new location and role demanded, Starfleet probably felt would be better met with larger vessels such as those Bajoran transport ships so often visiting the station.

I think it is an interesting question. Why would DS9 not need shuttles if every starship uses them (besides driving the plot along)? Most of the runabout-missions on DS9's early seasons could have been handled by shuttles as well. Maybe not the trips through the wormhole, but if we discuss initial outfitting of the station (no wormhole, orbit around Bajor), why would you give them 3 runabouts and not 30 regular shuttles?

 

[Timo]

That's worth pondering, certainly. Runabouts are assuredly capable of interstellar travel (at speeds below warp five, apparently, as per "Dax"), while we've never heard of a shuttlecraft journey that would explicitly have started at star system A and ended at star system B without involving starship rides in between. Perhaps Sisko was granted the use of three getaway craft in case Bajor blew in his face?

No doubt Sisko was also given other auxiliaries, including smallish shuttles but possibly also larger, possibly slow and short-ranged bulk haulers that would have been useful in Bajoran orbit but perhaps withdrawn as the station moved. It's just that no plot made use of such things - no plot made use of workbees, either.

In "Covenant", the Bajorans squatting at that station have what they call "cargo shuttles" available; in "Crossover", the Mirror Universe O'Brien knows about "runabout pads" (or at least Smiley can figure out what Bashir means with that terminology). So at least two other sets of users had found some use for the station's auxiliary craft bays...

That TNG episode where Picard and crew used the runabout - I was under the impression that they implied that by that time, at least the Enterprise had her own runabout(s) as well.

Or then this nameless craft was starbase property and about to be returned there.

We don't know what sort of shuttles the E-D uses for long distance liaison work (as opposed to these A-to-ship, ship-to-B affairs). The one that stranded Troi with the Armus oil slick was never seen intact; perhaps that one was an older runabout type, between the TAS "Slaver Weapon" craft and the DS9 craft?

Timo Saloniemi