• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Woman of the Week #7 - Anita Sarkeesian

You can check multiple options:

  • I have watched some of Sarkeesians videos. She raises some interesting points.

    Votes: 24 60.0%
  • I have watched her videos. I don't necessarily agree with them but having a discourse is a good thin

    Votes: 4 10.0%
  • I have never heard of Sarkeesian or GamerGate.

    Votes: 8 20.0%
  • It's about ethics in video game journalism... !

    Votes: 4 10.0%

  • Total voters
    40
@THE Robert Maxwell please stop putting words in my mouth. I don't respect that.

I never said people shouldn't take their jobs or threats seriously. You assumed that's what I think. You don't know me so don't assume you know what I think please.

Yeah, getting threatened over controversial opinions, but I wasn't saying that those shouldn't be taken seriously.

Secondly there is always room for neutral moderation and viewpoints. The world isn't Black and White. there is a grey area too. Anita doesn't get criticism because she's a woman. It's because many gamers feel she's attacking something she doesn't have interest in.

Watch this video. She clearly says she's not a gamer nor has any interest in gaming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5N5b5WDaYE

It's like me criticizing Hip hop for being too raunchy yet I don't like hip hop anyway.

With all due respect, that's bullshit. Look at the women being lambasted by Gamergate. Death threats, rape, being doxxed. Are you honestly going to tell me the guys who are outspoken are getting this same treatment? Fuck no, they're not. Chris Kluwe called them out, openly, and he wasn't threatened with rape or death. This is about women getting uppity in a male dominated social group. That is what this is about.
 
I never said people shouldn't take their jobs or threats seriously. You assumed that's what I think. You don't know me so don't assume you know what I think please.

It's not my fault you explain yourself so poorly that people draw different conclusions than you intend.

Yeah, getting threatened over controversial opinions, but I wasn't saying that those shouldn't be taken seriously.

You said "both sides are taking things too seriously." Exactly what did you mean by that, if not that the people being threatened (overwhelmingly women) are taking things too seriously?

Secondly there is always room for neutral moderation and viewpoints. The world isn't Black and White. there is a grey area too. Anita doesn't get criticism because she's a woman. It's because many gamers feel she's attacking something she doesn't have interest in.

There is really no "moderation" in the face of something like GamerGate. You either agree with what they do or you don't. Reasonable people don't.

And of course she gets criticism because she's a woman. How come the men who've jumped in against GamerGate aren't getting death threats? Some of them have even said much nastier things than Sarkeesian ever has, yet somehow they escape the level of invective and abuse she gets. Why do you think that is?

Watch this video. She clearly says she's not a gamer nor has any interest in gaming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5N5b5WDaYE

Did you even watch the clip? Number one, it was filmed in 2010, before she started her Tropes vs. Women in Video Games project. Number two, she was specific that she's not interested in the kinds of games that predominate--the kind where you run around and kill people. Since then, she actually has played a wide variety of games, and actually enjoys many of them. That's not going to stop her from pointing out which ones she finds problematic, though--this is the purpose of her project, after all.

It's like me criticizing Hip hop for being too raunchy yet I don't like hip hop anyway.

If you wanted to do a researched critique of hip hop music that explained your perspective and why you consider its sexual content problematic then I can't imagine that being in any way worthy of death threats.
 
It's like one person speaks out about disliking violence, and the other guy shoots him in the face, only for the third person in the group to say "guys, guys, you're both guilty of being violent!"

It's disingenuous, lazy, and totally ignores what has happened to the women in this situation.

Here's a great comic that makes the point better than I can:

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8360898816/h184BA388/

 
You said "both sides are taking things too seriously." Exactly what did you mean by that, if not that the people being threatened (overwhelmingly women) are taking things too seriously?

Some gamers take Anita's opinion's too seriously. If they just ignored her like I do, she wouldn't be receiving any threats.


There is really no "moderation" in the face of something like GamerGate. You either agree with what they do or you don't. Reasonable people don't.

I don't have to be entirely for or against either side. This isn't Democrats vs Republicans here.


And of course she gets criticism because she's a woman. How come the men who've jumped in against GamerGate aren't getting death threats? Some of them have even said much nastier things than Sarkeesian ever has, yet somehow they escape the level of invective and abuse she gets. Why do you think that is?
I don't know, I'm not involved with either side nor do I speak for them.

Did you even watch the clip? Number one, it was filmed in 2010, before she started her Tropes vs. Women in Video Games project. Number two, she was specific that she's not interested in the kinds of games that predominate--the kind where you run around and kill people. Since then, she actually has played a wide variety of games, and actually enjoys many of them. That's not going to stop her from pointing out which ones she finds problematic, though--this is the purpose of her project, after all.
Hyperbole.

If you wanted to do a researched critique of hip hop music that explained your perspective and why you consider its sexual content problematic then I can't imagine that being in any way worthy of death threats.
You'd be surprised by how many Hip Hop artists get death threats. Infact, there was a shooting and a rapper got shot.
http://www.tmz.com/2014/08/24/suge-knight-shot-stabbed-one-oak-outside-club-ambulance-hospital/

It's like one person speaks out about disliking violence, and the other guy shoots him in the face, only for the third person in the group to say "guys, guys, you're both guilty of being violent!"

It's disingenuous, lazy, and totally ignores what has happened to the women in this situation.

Here's a great comic that makes the point better than I can:

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8360898816/h184BA388/


I'm not like that nor do I condone such things. I just gave my thoughts and opinions on the subject.
 
Well, thanks for proving you have an opinion which is poorly informed, incoherent, nonsensical, and thus absolutely worthless. It's been a pleasure.
 
Anita, Zoe and the others don't deserve to be threatened over their actions and opinions, but Gamers as a whole don't deserve to be called terrorists or sexist pigs because the majority of them disagree.
Disagree with what? That Anita, Zoe, and the others don't deserve to be threatened, for whatever reason?

Are you trying to point out that there is an innocent minority among "Gamers?" No doubt there is, but those who disagree that Anita et at. don't deserve to be threatened aren't among that innocent minority.

"Don't deserve," "don't deserve" again, and "disagree." There are so many nots and dis-es that it's nearly confusing.
 
Last edited:
Disagree with what? That Anita, Zoe, and the others don't deserve to be threated, for whatever reason?
Not all gamers threaten Anita and Zoe Quinn. I don't. I never heard of either until fairly recently.

Are you trying to point out that there is an innocent minority among "Gamers?" No doubt there is, but those who disagree that Anita et at. don't deserve to be threatened aren't among that innocent minority.

And I never said anyone deserves to be mistreated or threatened over their opinions. The internet is a nasty place. When you say something, one has to be prepared to be on the receiving end of criticism. Like this thread for instance. I pointed out what I think and here I am being jumped on for not sharing the opinion of the majority.

"Don't deserve," "don't deserve" again, and "disagree." There are so many nots and dis-es that it's nearly confusing.
Not my problem. I'm done here.
 
Disagree with what? That Anita, Zoe, and the others don't deserve to be threated, for whatever reason?
Not all gamers threaten Anita and Zoe Quinn. I don't. I never heard of either until fairly recently.

Are you trying to point out that there is an innocent minority among "Gamers?" No doubt there is, but those who disagree that Anita et at. don't deserve to be threatened aren't among that innocent minority.

And I never said anyone deserves to be mistreated or threatened over their opinions. The internet is a nasty place. When you say something, one has to be prepared to be on the receiving end of criticism. Like this thread for instance. I pointed out what I think and here I am being jumped on for not sharing the opinion of the majority.

"Don't deserve," "don't deserve" again, and "disagree." There are so many nots and dis-es that it's nearly confusing.
Not my problem. I'm done here.

People are frustrated because you're trying to appear neutral in a situation that needs something more than artificial neutrality. It's like when news channels state that they are balanced, offering "both sides" of the story. Well, sometimes one side is threatened with rape, and the other side does the threatening. No "balance" needed.
 
Did you even watch the clip? Number one, it was filmed in 2010, before she started her Tropes vs. Women in Video Games project. Number two, she was specific that she's not interested in the kinds of games that predominate--the kind where you run around and kill people. Since then, she actually has played a wide variety of games, and actually enjoys many of them. That's not going to stop her from pointing out which ones she finds problematic, though--this is the purpose of her project, after all.
Hyperbole.
Which part?
 
If you wanted to do a researched critique of hip hop music that explained your perspective and why you consider its sexual content problematic then I can't imagine that being in any way worthy of death threats.
You'd be surprised by how many Hip Hop artists get death threats. Infact, there was a shooting and a rapper got shot.
http://www.tmz.com/2014/08/24/suge-knight-shot-stabbed-one-oak-outside-club-ambulance-hospital/

Usually by other rappers, though, or because they have (perceived) links to organised crime and gangs. Besides, the correct analogy for your example from earlier on would be you being threatened by hip hop fans because you stated that hip hop is too raunchy (which it obviously is, by the way) to the point where you relocate from your home because you don't feel safe there anymore or have to cancel public appearances because people threatened to cause a massacre. That didn't even happen to Tipper Gore back in the day when she advocated warning labels on hip hop records.


But back on topic - I've seen a couple of Anita's videos. She first showed up on my radar a while ago because some feminist geeks recommended her show. Since I don't play games I've only watched a few of them and mostly the more general ones. Though apparently I did see the one that is deemed so controversial. I usually found them to be well-argued.

Women who are outspoken about feminism online all get harrassed sooner or later, to some degree. Apparently, a lot of men (it's difficult to ascertain how many) feel threatened by it and try to bully those women into silence, sometimes sucessfully, not to mention the general chilling effect this has on other women. I'm cowardly in that regard myself for that reason so I admire those women who set forth to fight sexism or patriarchal structures even though I don't always agree with them or even sometimes vehemently disagree.
 
Games or movies can reinforce or challenge how you view the world or society.

I honestly can't think of how any video games have done that in my adulthood. Same with movies/TV.

2) There is no reason for games not to be more inclusive.

You won't get any argument from me there, but I'm not sure what this really has to do with what I said.

Psychologists, and medical science, disagree with you, and you'll find them in the links I posted earlier.

Most of the articles you linked had to do with depiction of real women in media. It had nothing to do with the perception of fictional/non-realistic characters. I'd wager that if MRIs were done of people playing games, that most would probably be perceiving all of the characters as objects, regardless of their depicted gender. At least, that's how I play games. If I were to treat video game characters as real people, I'd never be able to kill any of them.


I feel somewhat concerned for some people here that allow video games to change worldviews or bleed into their real life and behavior.
 
Games or movies can reinforce or challenge how you view the world or society.

I honestly can't think of how any video games have done that in my adulthood. Same with movies/TV.

2) There is no reason for games not to be more inclusive.
You won't get any argument from me there, but I'm not sure what this really has to do with what I said.

Psychologists, and medical science, disagree with you, and you'll find them in the links I posted earlier.

Most of the articles you linked had to do with depiction of real women in media. It had nothing to do with the perception of fictional/non-realistic characters. I'd wager that if MRIs were done of people playing games, that most would probably be perceiving all of the characters as objects, regardless of their depicted gender. At least, that's how I play games. If I were to treat video game characters as real people, I'd never be able to kill any of them.


I feel somewhat concerned for some people here that allow video games to change worldviews or bleed into their real life and behavior.

Peer reviewed article on violence in video games and its effect on women:
http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/27/15/3016

That's the abstract. I've attached the PDF below.
Enjoy.
 

Attachments

  • J%20Interpers%20Violence-2012-Beck-3016-31.compressed.pdf
    75.1 KB · Views: 3
Disagree with what? That Anita, Zoe, and the others don't deserve to be threated, for whatever reason?
Not all gamers threaten Anita and Zoe Quinn. I don't. I never heard of either until fairly recently.

Are you trying to point out that there is an innocent minority among "Gamers?" No doubt there is, but those who disagree that Anita et at. don't deserve to be threatened aren't among that innocent minority.

And I never said anyone deserves to be mistreated or threatened over their opinions.
And I never said you said that, either.
The internet is a nasty place. When you say something, one has to be prepared to be on the receiving end of criticism. Like this thread for instance. I pointed out what I think and here I am being jumped on for not sharing the opinion of the majority.
Whether you agree or disagree with the majority of posters so far in this thread has nothing to do with why I replied to your post. I replied to your post because of what was written in it, period.
"Don't deserve," "don't deserve" again, and "disagree." There are so many nots and dis-es that it's nearly confusing.
Not my problem.
I didn't say it was.
I'm done here.
OK.

People are frustrated because you're trying to appear neutral in a situation that needs something more than artificial neutrality. It's like when news channels state that they are balanced, offering "both sides" of the story. Well, sometimes one side is threatened with rape, and the other side does the threatening. No "balance" needed.
That hits the nail on the head.

It's not like one side has exclusive claim to the term "Gamers," which is why I put it in quotes in my first reply. I consider myself a gamer, simply because I spend a lot of time playing computer games, too much perhaps. I reject the implication that to call myself a gamer, I must associate with people who threaten other people.
 
And I'm not a feminist, I'm a humanist: Level the playing field for everyone.

The correct answer is "Of course I'm a feminist; I'm a humanist." Feminism is an undeniable part of humanism.
Old school feminism, maybe; where the drive was to level things out, more of focus of getting a fair shot and proving that they were just as good as men if not better. Modern day (say last 10 years or so) isn't as inclusive, IMO; mainly the issues with ignoring or excluding the transgender and homosexual community--which is an old problem that's coming more prevalent.
 
And I'm not a feminist, I'm a humanist: Level the playing field for everyone.

The correct answer is "Of course I'm a feminist; I'm a humanist." Feminism is an undeniable part of humanism.
Old school feminism, maybe; where the drive was to level things out, more of focus of getting a fair shot and proving that they were just as good as men if not better. Modern day (say last 10 years or so) isn't as inclusive, IMO; mainly the issues with ignoring or excluding the transgender and homosexual community--which is an old problem that's coming more prevalent.

It isn't? I became a feminist in the past 10 years. What I've learned from the feminist movement is that we're all in this together. If you're talking about radical feminism, then that doesn't apply, because Anita Sarkeesian isn't a radical feminist, and that is what we're talking about here.
 
The correct answer is "Of course I'm a feminist; I'm a humanist." Feminism is an undeniable part of humanism.
Old school feminism, maybe; where the drive was to level things out, more of focus of getting a fair shot and proving that they were just as good as men if not better. Modern day (say last 10 years or so) isn't as inclusive, IMO; mainly the issues with ignoring or excluding the transgender and homosexual community--which is an old problem that's coming more prevalent.

It isn't? I became a feminist in the past 10 years. What I've learned from the feminist movement is that we're all in this together. If you're talking about radical feminism, then that doesn't apply, because Anita Sarkeesian isn't a radical feminist, and that is what we're talking about here.
Different experiences on my part. And it's not online, we're talking face to face. Especially with friends who are homosexual and get treated like dirt by "feminist". So I don't consider modern day feminist to be into it for everyone.
 
Modern feminists treating gay men as if they're dirt is a claim I'm going to need some proof for. Anecdotes won't fly.
 
And I'm not a feminist, I'm a humanist: Level the playing field for everyone.

The correct answer is "Of course I'm a feminist; I'm a humanist." Feminism is an undeniable part of humanism.
Old school feminism, maybe; where the drive was to level things out, more of focus of getting a fair shot and proving that they were just as good as men if not better. Modern day (say last 10 years or so) isn't as inclusive, IMO; mainly the issues with ignoring or excluding the transgender and homosexual community--which is an old problem that's coming more prevalent.
Ok, feminism. Let's do this.

Short answer: That doesn't make any sense.

Long answer:

What, was "old-school" feminism MORE inclusive of transgender and homosexual people? Considering that awareness and acceptance of transgender, homosexual, and other non-hetero-normative identities and sexualities has only grown over the course of recent years/decades (and was still in a truly horrible state in many countries, certainly in the US, as recently as the mid-to-late 20th century), I don't buy that idea.

And you're saying "old-school feminism was about getting a fair shot for women and proving they were just as good as men, but modern feminism isn't as inclusive." That's actually kind of a nonsensical criticism itself. You're comparing the goal of old-school feminism with the supposed exclusivity of modern feminism.

It's like saying "New Trek isn't as good as old Trek. I mean, old Trek was all about adventure and exploration, but new Trek doesn't use it's minor characters as well and just gives all the attention to the main trio."

If you want to compare the two, compare the same parts of the two. So again I ask: was old-school feminism somehow more inclusive of non-hetero-normative gender identities and sexualities? That strikes me as extremely unlikely. If anything, it seems like modern feminism is making strides toward correcting its transphobic elements, which have been around for some time. Or in other words... they were failings of old-school feminism that many feminists now acknowledge need to go. So-called "radical feminism" is the main branch under which transphobia (among other issues) remain commonplace. A quick google search turned up this New Yorker article on the subject (it's super long but the main part relevant to my point can be found in the first few paragraphs), which correlates with other writings I've seen elsewhere as well as my own experiences. If there is an issue within modern feminism with excluding gender identity issues and the people to whom those issues apply, it seems to be a relic from older forms of feminism that is slowly being eradicated.

Now, if a self-professed feminist were to actually dismiss or belittle trans or gay people, yeah, that's a problem. Obviously. That person is displaying ignorance and intolerance. But it's not a problem because they are a feminist. Nor does it necessarily reflect badly on the notions of the feminist movement (unless its widespread. Which it was, but as noted above, that ship is being righted). It's just... a problem if anyone does that.

On the other hand, if what you mean is, feminism is flawed because it's primary ideological vision is not, wholly and completely, inclusive of trans people and gay people and racism and every equality issue imaginable, then that's just completely unfair. Feminism is about equality. People who consider themselves feminists want equality, and generally speaking that does mean for everyone. But it's THROUGH THE LENS of women's issues. That's how feminism began, and that's what it still is. An equality movement can (and almost always is) generally focused on the issues concerning one specific group (in this case, women). Should the main issue and others intersect, then yes, those other issues should be acknowledged. And someone who isn't a straight, cis-gendered woman absolutely should not be excluded from participating in the ongoing discourse in and around feminism, or from benefiting from equal rights strides feminism makes. But it isn't fair to decry the feminism movement as "not being inclusive" on the basis of not being about gender identity issues or homosexual issues, for not pushing those issues as hard, or as often, as it pushes women's issues, because women's issues was and remains what the movement is about. Women's issues are still a THING. Women still face inequality. Therefore, the focused movement is still needed.

Should gay rights activist groups be criticized for not spending enough time talking about women's issues?

And even acknowledging that some issues with exclusivity and transphobia are still present within feminism as a whole, all that means is that the movement can and should continue to grow and evolve. But I can't get behind the idea that it warrants dismissing the whole movement. That would be a textbook example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and in this case, it happens to be a really damn important baby, too. And really, this isn't any different to what has at times gone on in other movements. Homosexual activism has often been dismissive of, and even hostile toward, bisexuality and bisexual (and pansexual) people. It's getting better, but it is a problem. Waving aside gay rights activism and just saying "well, I don't support 'gay rights', just 'human rights'" on that basis would be absurd.

Movements evolve and humans are not perfect. Every person, no matter how progressive or inclusive they may be on one issue, has the potential to be the exact opposite on another issue. We don't give up, we don't stop trying, we keep moving forward and educating and trying to be more inclusive.

Moving on to the other part of your strangely worded critique of feminism, continuing with the whole "please compare feminist apples to feminist apples, not feminist oranges" theme: is modern feminism no longer about leveling the playing field for men and women? About giving women a fair shot? About proving they are just as capable as men? Note, those things are, according to you, what made old feminism perfectly ok. So why would you have a beef with modern feminism since it's goals are the same damn things?

Modern feminism also wholly embraces the idea that stripping away the harmful elements of patriarchy would benefit MEN as well. This is just a gut feeling on my part, but I would strongly suspect that awareness of how patriarchy and machismo culture negatively affect men as well as women is, if anything, much stronger today than in previous decades.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top