Woman of the Week #7 - Anita Sarkeesian

[{ Emilia }]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not criticizing anybody for replying to this. I'm doing it myself.

But yeah, it'd be great if we could talk about how to make gaming more inclusive. Maybe Seer would like to contribute to that and not talk about what he doesn't like about Sarkeesian for a minute.

I would also like to know why exactly some group of gamers reacts so violently to people suggesting a more inclusive approach. I don't understand the mindset. I don't understand how any reasonably person can feel threatened by that.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I think Sarkeesian's work is already doing good things to make video games more inclusive. I've seen various examples of game developers and designers on twitter making note of her criticisms and taking them into account in their own games. Some of them were even people whose games she criticized. Somehow, those guys didn't launch into death threats against her--they actually took her analysis to heart, and I would hope that will eventually make a better and more diverse world of video games for everyone.

 

[{ Emilia }]

^ Now that is really encouraging.

 

[Amaris]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not criticizing anybody for replying to this. I'm doing it myself.

But yeah, it'd be great if we could talk about how to make gaming more inclusive. Maybe Seer would like to contribute to that and not talk about what he doesn't like about Sarkeesian for a minute.

I would also like to know why exactly some group of gamers reacts so violently to people suggesting a more inclusive approach. I don't understand the mindset. I don't understand how any reasonably person can feel threatened by that.

I don't get it myself. I have theories, but I'm not really sure why, and it's mentally and emotionally exhausting to even peer into the issue. That is why I admire these women who have taken a look inside, are on the inside, and are often targeted, yet they continue to explore the issue. That takes guts and dedication.

I think Sarkeesian's work is already doing good things to make video games more inclusive. I've seen various examples of game developers and designers on twitter making note of her criticisms and taking them into account in their own games. Some of them were even people whose games she criticized. Somehow, those guys didn't launch into death threats against her--they actually took her analysis to heart, and I would hope that will eventually make a better and more diverse world of video games for everyone.

That is excellent news.

I have to give credit to Kotaku as well, who has been running with this for a while, now, even in the face of unpopularity. They have been a strong advocate for not only Anita, but also Zoe Quinn, Felicia Day, and others who have spoken out about the misogyny that needs addressed.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Do you control the woman in the porn video? Can you force her to do something she doesn't want to do? No, but in the video game? Sometimes, but sometimes not, because she's an avatar for your personal desire. You can make her do anything you want, and she'll obey. If she doesn't, then that means the programmer actively created her to resist, only for you to force her to bend to your wishes, which includes her being exploited, shot, and robbed.

How can you keep comparing real people and a fictional game character? I mean, so what if you can control or make a video game character do whatever you want? I'm sure a lot of us who've played those games make characters do things we don't actually do. It's because it's fantasy. And I'm sure that a great number of people who play games understand that distinction.

So what I'm wondering is, what is the actual effect that these depictions are supposed to have? For myself, I would argue there is none.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

It's incredibly naive to think the culture one consumes doesn't affect your thinking or behavior at all.

 

[Random_Spock]

It's incredibly naive to think the culture one consumes doesn't affect your thinking or behavior at all.

Agreed. To think that playing games doesn't affect a person, is a pretty naive pov. There are plenty of games out there that promote all sorts of behavior. Guys might actually think they can get away with the kind of behavior that they see in the games.

Take the God of War series. In that series, there is a mini game where you (the main character, Kratos) have sex to unlock some features (iirc). Don't get me wrong, I like the series for what it's worth. But there are quite a few games that tend to go that route.

They use sex and innuendo (along with T&A) to help sell games. And for the most part, it works. People still continue to buy the games.

It would be nice to see more of a balance in the kinds of games that come out though. Less of the over the top representations of women (Dragon Crown, for example, I'm talking about you) and more down to earth ones. There's nothing wrong with a female hero who doesn't have a huge rack and a big butt.

Brains are just as sexy .

Maybe bringing back the balance might help with some of the negative effects some games bring out in others.

 

[{ Emilia }]

So what I'm wondering is, what is the actual effect that these depictions are supposed to have? For myself, I would argue there is none.

1) Media influences how you "construct your reality", how you view things.
Media doesn't make anybody rape or kill somebody. But the media we consume contributes to how we construct our world views and realities.
Games or movies can reinforce or challenge how you view the world or society. Just like social interaction and your environment they shape your cognitive orientation. They're only ONE aspect of it of course. I don't want to exaggerate their effect.
But if that one aspect exhibits a fundamental problem regarding sexism or even misogyny then it might reinforce sexist views in some people.
Sexism is a structural issue in our society. Women have to deal with it on a daily basis. We should make an effort not to reinforce sexist views through an overuse of sexist tropes in video games or other media.

2) There is no reason for games not to be more inclusive.
Games have traditionally focused on male white heroes. While I (like most other women) have no problem playing a game featuring a male protagonist it would be nice to have some more diversity.
I don't even understand why that idea bothers some men. Women have watched movies featuring male heroes for decades. I'm sure men can get used to a more diverse selection of protagonists, too.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

Here's a little song that shows a fraction of how many female protagonists there are in games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXMoLCA3GQ4&list=UU93SoW3GjgEIYSAQqjzF3CQ

 

[Amaris]

Do you control the woman in the porn video? Can you force her to do something she doesn't want to do? No, but in the video game? Sometimes, but sometimes not, because she's an avatar for your personal desire. You can make her do anything you want, and she'll obey. If she doesn't, then that means the programmer actively created her to resist, only for you to force her to bend to your wishes, which includes her being exploited, shot, and robbed.

How can you keep comparing real people and a fictional game character? I mean, so what if you can control or make a video game character do whatever you want? I'm sure a lot of us who've played those games make characters do things we don't actually do. It's because it's fantasy. And I'm sure that a great number of people who play games understand that distinction.

So what I'm wondering is, what is the actual effect that these depictions are supposed to have? For myself, I would argue there is none.

Psychologists, and medical science, disagree with you, and you'll find them in the links I posted earlier. I'm not being snarky, it's just this question has been answered several times, and in depth, already.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Here's a little song that shows a fraction of how many female protagonists there are in games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXMoLCA3GQ4&list=UU93SoW3GjgEIYSAQqjzF3CQ

It also proves nothing at all.
There have always been female characters in games and movies. Yet there are interesting points to be made regarding the portrayal of those female characters and the use of tropes.

I'm sure you were aware of that.

To give you an example: Female heroes aren't wearing skimpy outfits in an effort to be more inclusive towards female gamers.

 

[SeerSGB]

It's incredibly naive to think the culture one consumes doesn't affect your thinking or behavior at all.

I can honestly say that playing games hasn't affect my thinking or my behaivor one wit. Where to have, I'd went on a killing spree a long time ago. But to me, games are games, fantasy. They cease to be real the minute I log out or turn it off.

I watch slasher flicks and riff on them, does that mean I don't find real life death and violence abhorent, that I still don't get sick at the sight of a real dead body? That I find real life abuses, the suffering of real people, real flesh and blood, far more troubling that killing pixels and polygons seems to me that I have a pretty firm grip on what matters.

Or is it possible, that not everyone internalizes their media in the same way?

 

[CaptainMurdock]

Here's a little song that shows a fraction of how many female protagonists there are in games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXMoLCA3GQ4&list=UU93SoW3GjgEIYSAQqjzF3CQ

It also proves nothing at all.
There have always been female characters in games and movies. Yet there are interesting points to be made regarding the portrayal of those female characters and the use of tropes.

I'm sure you were aware of that.

To give you an example: Female heroes aren't wearing skimpy outfits in an effort to be more inclusive towards female gamers.

To be honest, I'm neutral on the whole Gamergate and Anita Sarkeesian situation. I haven't been much of a gamer in the last few years with games and game consoles getting more expensive. I don't think either side is wrong or right. Both have given descent differing viewpoints on both sides. Gamergate isn't some movement devoted to threatening women such as Anita or Zoe Quinn. It's about exposing corruption in gaming journalism.

Anita, Zoe and the others don't deserve to be threatened over their actions and opinions, but Gamers as a whole don't deserve to be called terrorists or sexist pigs because the majority of them disagree.

For me personally, I don't care about either. I just want to enjoy a fun game that takes me out of reality.

 

[SeerSGB]

Here's a little song that shows a fraction of how many female protagonists there are in games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXMoLCA3GQ4&list=UU93SoW3GjgEIYSAQqjzF3CQ

It also proves nothing at all.
There have always been female characters in games and movies. Yet there are interesting points to be made regarding the portrayal of those female characters and the use of tropes.

I'm sure you were aware of that.

To give you an example: Female heroes aren't wearing skimpy outfits in an effort to be more inclusive towards female gamers.

To be honest, I'm neutral on the whole Gamergate and Anita Sarkeesian situation. I haven't been much of a gamer in the last few years with games and game consoles getting more expensive. I don't think either side is wrong or right. Both have given descent differing viewpoints on both sides. Gamergate isn't some movement devoted to threatening women such as Anita or Zoe Quinn. It's about exposing corruption in gaming journalism.

Anita, Zoe and the others don't deserve to be threatened over their actions and opinions, but Gamers as a whole don't deserve to be called terrorists or sexist pigs because the majority of them disagree.

For me personally, I don't care about either. I just want to enjoy a fun game that takes me out of reality.

Thing with gamergate is that was rooted in /v/'s reaction to Zoe Quinn and the shitstorm around her. /pol/ glomed onto it like they always do.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

Thing with gamergate is that was rooted in /v/'s reaction to Zoe Quinn and the shitstorm around her. /pol/ glomed onto it like they always do.

Well I don't go on 4chan so I can't really speak for or against them. Most of the threats are just people being jerks. All the big gamergate speakers publicly condemn those who do it.

I don't know much about either side, but It would be nice to see a peaceful debate between Anita and someone who kindly disagrees with her.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Here's a little song that shows a fraction of how many female protagonists there are in games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXMoLCA3GQ4&list=UU93SoW3GjgEIYSAQqjzF3CQ

It also proves nothing at all.
There have always been female characters in games and movies. Yet there are interesting points to be made regarding the portrayal of those female characters and the use of tropes.

I'm sure you were aware of that.

To give you an example: Female heroes aren't wearing skimpy outfits in an effort to be more inclusive towards female gamers.

To be honest, I'm neutral on the whole Gamergate and Anita Sarkeesian situation. I haven't been much of a gamer in the last few years with games and game consoles getting more expensive. I don't think either side is wrong or right. Both have given descent differing viewpoints on both sides. Gamergate isn't some movement devoted to threatening women such as Anita or Zoe Quinn. It's about exposing corruption in gaming journalism.

Anita, Zoe and the others don't deserve to be threatened over their actions and opinions, but Gamers as a whole don't deserve to be called terrorists or sexist pigs because the majority of them disagree.

For me personally, I don't care about either. I just want to enjoy a fun game that takes me out of reality.

I don't think this is the sort of issue where anything is gained by an appearance of neutrality.

Is it really so hard to condemn people who send rape and death threats?

Is it really so hard to recognize a smokescreen like "ethics in games journalism" when, in practice, a movement focuses entirely on terrorizing women and putting them out of work (not to mention their homes)?

Would it cost you so much time and effort to read a couple articles, realize what's going on, and decide where you stand? (One such piece, but note it has some NSFW material which is pixelated and some of what's within may be pretty disturbing.)

Some have characterized this as a turf war between 4chan and tumblr, but it's a lot more than that now. In a lot of ways, what kinds of games will be made in the future hinges on what happens now. If the sort of abuse women like Anita Sarkeesian, Zoe Quinn, Jenn Frank, Brianna Wu, and others have experienced is not vociferously stamped out, it sends a very clear message: women are not welcome in the world of video games. Not to play them, and certainly not to create them. It's a boys' world where girls just aren't wanted. Yes, some women may be around, but they'll have to toe the line of the men who run the show, or face the same treatment as the dreaded "SJWs."

That's not what gaming is to me, and it's not what gaming should be to anyone, even if you don't consider yourself a particularly political person. It's really a simple question: is gaming for everyone, or is it for a small and homogeneous group of people?

If you answer in the former, then congratulations: you have rejected the core premise of GamerGate. If it's the latter, then you make me very sad.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

Gaming is for everyone. The song I posted proved that there are games made for women. Hell I've invited my own mother to play games with me and she gladly joined in. People on both sides are taking things too seriously. The sad truth is that games are made from a Marketing prospective and the majority of games I play are made from Japan which primarily focused on Japanese culture.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Gaming is for everyone. The song I posted proved that there are games made for women. Hell I've invited my own mother to play games with me and she gladly joined in. People on both sides are taking things too seriously. The sad truth is that games are made from a Marketing prospective and the majority of games I play are made from Japan which primarily focused on Japanese culture.

No one has claimed in any of this that no games are made for or about women, only that the gaming industry and gaming culture are frequently hostile to women, as evidenced by the GamerGate fiasco.

I don't understand how you could say people should not take their jobs seriously, or that women shouldn't take death threats seriously. That's what we're talking about here.

This isn't about one or two people, or one or two games. It's about a large cultural blind spot and an industry that's done a poor job of inclusion.

I'm also not sure what buying Japanese games has to do with it. I get that you aren't invested in what American video game companies do, and that's fine. But then what's the point in chiming in just to say you're "neutral"? What do you think that adds to the discussion?

 

[{ Emilia }]

Gaming is for everyone. The song I posted proved that there are games made for women.

Anita Sarkeesian never claimed all games or all gamers are sexist. She also never said that all games that include sexist tropes are bad games. In fact she always points out that this isn't her intent.

You should make an effort and actually check out what she says. You'll find that none of it is outrageous or crazy.

But implying that a woman should just not take rape or death threads so seriously is bizarre.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

@THE Robert Maxwell please stop putting words in my mouth. I don't respect that.

I never said people shouldn't take their jobs or threats seriously. You assumed that's what I think. You don't know me so don't assume you know what I think please.

Yeah, getting threatened over controversial opinions sucks, but I wasn't saying that those shouldn't be taken seriously.

Secondly there is always room for neutral moderation and viewpoints. The world isn't Black and White. there is a grey area too. Anita doesn't get criticism because she's a woman. It's because many gamers feel she's attacking something she doesn't have interest in.

Watch this video. She clearly says she's not a gamer nor has any interest in gaming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5N5b5WDaYE

It's like me criticizing Hip hop for being too raunchy yet I don't like hip hop anyway.