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Wolf 359 Questions

You think in such three dimensional terms! How small you've become!

Really though, I think it's likely the cube sent out a smaller craft like you suggest. We saw it done in First Contact. Maybe they did it in BOBW to send home a sample of what they've just assimilated in the Alpha Quadrant? They've obviously got some kind of fascination with humanity, moreso than other races it seems, so they could be eager to get some prized human drones back to safety ASAP.
 
Umm, we have seen the Borg attempt transformation of the Voyager, the E-E and the NX-01 into Borg vessels, and succeeding in that with the Earth warp transport in "Regeneration". Were all the starships sent to Wolf 359 really accounted for?

That's what I'd do if I were the Borg: every time I have a big battle, I use the scrap metal there as seeds for new Borg vessels, the first mission of which is to get out of there and bring news of victory back to the Athenians.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I can help resurrect it with a topic of my own.

Voyager often had Borg or ex-Borg characters who were assimilated at Wolf 359 (like Riley in "Unity"). The only way I have been able to reconcile this is with the theory that there was a second Borg ship present or that the Cube was able to launch some sort of smaller craft like a Sphere.

The Enterprise destroys the Borg Cube at the end of the second episode. There is no way there were any survivors, let alone any chance that those survivors could have made it back to the Delta Quadrant.

isn't it a small universe? that one Bajoran lady that was part of Seven's original unimatrix was also from the Excalibur at 359. I think Voyager was a magnet for AQ drones (esp those from W359)
 
Actually, no connection was made between the Excalibur lady and Wolf 359 in "Survival Instinct". Since only a handful of people seemed to have been assimilated from that ship at that time, the encounter was probably more like the one between Picard and the Borg at J-25 in "Q Who?".

Timo Saloniemi
 
However one woman in the mini-collective specified being on the Roosevelt at Wolf 359, so it could be a few starfleet ships were assimilated and sent back to the Delta Quadrant.
 
Voyager often had Borg or ex-Borg characters who were assimilated at Wolf 359 (like Riley in "Unity"). The only way I have been able to reconcile this is with the theory that there was a second Borg ship present or that the Cube was able to launch some sort of smaller craft like a Sphere.

That's the explanation I used in my TNG novel Greater Than the Sum. Before the attack on Earth, the Borg used a scout sphere to send some of the "surplus" drones it had assimilated in the battle back to the Delta Quadrant, since there weren't enough places for them in the complement of the cube and they would've been a drain on resources needed for the attack.
 
OTOh, Borg ships have to start somewhere. And the use of recently defeated enemy ships as seeds for new Cubes does sound like efficient use of resources.

Although alternately, the victorious Cube might also use the wreckage for boosting its own structures and size.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Umm, we have seen the Borg attempt transformation of the Voyager, the E-E and the NX-01 into Borg vessels, and succeeding in that with the Earth warp transport in "Regeneration". Were all the starships sent to Wolf 359 really accounted for?

That's what I'd do if I were the Borg: every time I have a big battle, I use the scrap metal there as seeds for new Borg vessels, the first mission of which is to get out of there and bring news of victory back to the Athenians.

Timo Saloniemi

That has always been my personal pet theory of explaining this problem - in fact, I always liked to think that all Borg ships initially start as captured vessels and are slowly and dramatically assimilated and transformed into externally standard, internally unique ships employing Borg technology. I would imagine that the Borg only choose *certain* ships for this - in 'Dark Frontier' we see several alien ships simply abandoned, clearly unworthy of assimilation into the collective, but the Enterprise-E would surely have been a worthy prize. By contrast in Enterprise's 'Rengeration' it seems those drones captured their vessel out of necessity. Also, clearly some Borg assimilation missions might be for drones only, unless they really DO reproduce as seen in 'Q Who?' Once a target ship is initially captured, its crew assimilated, its technology would be upgraded to support basic Borg bits - the central plexus and vinculum and all that important stuff for collective connectivity and power requirements.

Then the drones turn to upgrading the ship's original systems with the goal of reaching a Borg outpost. Along the way, they might assimilate and incorporate lesser vessels or pieces of lesser vessels into their own, or simply resources for building onto the ship using their nanoprobes (as must have been done with the Arctic Research Ship from 'Regeneration'), all the while studying any unique assimilated technology taken from the captured vessel. I imagine if a ship's propulsion system wasn't upgradeable enough they would seek out and open the nearest transwarp conduit... a voyage which I imagine could vary a great deal in length depending where they were coming from.

By the time they reach a Borg outpost, the ship would be in a noticeably different configuration and will undergo a complete refit and reconstruction into one of the standard Borg ship shapes, with drones transferred on or off as the case warrants. The internal configuration might vary from one ship to the next based on the original ship's configuration and the location of various systems. (Of course they wouldn't have to vary, but I personally find that more interesting. :p)

But yeah, I imagine certain ships from Wolf 359 and perhaps even the subsequent battle from 'First Contact' would have made their way back to Borg space, thus explaining the presence of the drones in 'Voyager.' They really did seem to be drawn to Voyager though, like it was a Borg zapper.

Oh wait. It kinda was.

:rommie:
 
The internal configuration might vary from one ship to the next based on the original ship's configuration and the location of various systems.

that would help explain some of the differences in the internal appearance of the various Borg vessels we've seen throughout Trek, assuming the look is more or less uniform throughout a single vessel
 
I would think the overall look of Borg tech would be nearly identical from vessel to vessel, the changes would have to do with the original placement of the vinculum and plexus and the warp cores and the general shape of the original shape. You could also attribute the changes in what we've seen to the Borg evolving via their assimilations. If I overcome my case of lazies perhaps I'll make a coupla sketches showing what I mean. Generally though I would think you could beam into either of two Cubes and they would look the same, but finding your way to the central core in one would not be the same as in the other.

I don't want to start another thread about it, but mentioning the Borg incubator earlier made me wonder what others think about Borg reproduction. Prior to First Contact I was under the impression (and I believe it was the original intent) that the Borg created new drones the old fashioned way, and with 'Best of Both Worlds' we added the assimilation of certain select adults such as Picard, but First Contact onward the impression seems to be that assimilation is the primary way of Borg reproduction, with babies and children just as assimilation victims as well.

Personally, I prefer what I perceive as the original intent - that perhaps the Borg use their assimilatees as 'breeding stock' to create uberdrones of combined genetic heritage (providing various advantages of interbreeding, such as combined immunities, strengths, etc) which would both explain why many drones look to be of the same generic humanoid race (specific First Contact style drones notwithstanding) and seem to parallel the Borg's course towards perfection.

:rommie:
 
My preference on this matter is that the Borg don't reproduce, period. They assimilate, and then they assimilate more - but not with the intent of keeping up a population. The assimilation is performed (almost) solely in order to bring more of the miserable unconnected individuals under the loving care of the Collective.

In banal terms, this happens by punching needles through their necks and adding bits to their bodies. But the body is just a temporary stage there, and not even a particularly valuable commodity for the Collective - even though they don't waste the resources a body might offer. Sooner or later, the Drone is expended. But the assimilated individual continues, as an echo in the Collective, eternally alive in there unless for some reason purged. Any of these physically deceased individuals can be accessed by any of the physically remaining individuals, even, much like Seven accesses a variety of personae in "Infinite Regress".

At times, the Borg might suffer an influx of Drones, at times a drain. There's enough buffer capacity there to withstand a Species 8472 war or two, though, and never a pressing need to create or acquire more Drones just for the sake of Drone body acquisition. Babies and pregnant females or female-equivalents are quite often assimilated, for the richness of experience that their addition to the Collective provides, or then as collateral acquisitions; the Borg have no particular reason to abandon a potentially assimilable individual, no desire to fail to bring it to the paradisial realm of the Collective, and while they can put certain less appealing individuals "on hold" (say, the Kazon), they probably won't turn down a collateral baby because he or she cannot be similarly put "on hold" once the parents are assimilated.

Timo Saloniemi
 
We don't know that one ship survived. We know that Admiral Hanson wished that 40 ships could attend, but that he was hoping for more; we know that 39 were lost. Also, we know that there were surviving personnel from the battle who were able to escape from the site of carnage before the Enterprise arrived.

From that we can deduce that at least one warp-capable vessel, but perhaps dozens, indeed left the battle, carrying survivors like Ben Sisko. It would be arbitrary to claim that only one ship escaped; it would be strange to say that more than a fourth of the total strength of the fleet fled. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

OTOH, many of the ships destroyed in the battle may have survived. Sure, all the crew were killed or assimilated, and the hull was full of holes, but it was still a hull; it could have been repaired. Similarly, the US Navy tried to create the impression that no battleships were really lost at Pearl Harbor: all the sunken and destroyed ones save Arizona were raised and repaired or, if necessary, almost completely rebuilt so that it could be claimed that they had been salvaged.

One of the background wrecks in "BoBW" was labeled the Ahwahnee; a ship of this name and (slightly misspelled) registry would later see service in the episode "Redemption", possibly because she had been salvaged and repaired. Many of the almost intact wrecks might have been similarly restored.

Timo Saloniemi
 
My preference on this matter is that the Borg don't reproduce, period. They assimilate, and then they assimilate more - but not with the intent of keeping up a population. The assimilation is performed (almost) solely in order to bring more of the miserable unconnected individuals under the loving care of the Collective.

In banal terms, this happens by punching needles through their necks and adding bits to their bodies. But the body is just a temporary stage there, and not even a particularly valuable commodity for the Collective - even though they don't waste the resources a body might offer. Sooner or later, the Drone is expended. But the assimilated individual continues, as an echo in the Collective, eternally alive in there unless for some reason purged. Any of these physically deceased individuals can be accessed by any of the physically remaining individuals, even, much like Seven accesses a variety of personae in "Infinite Regress".

At times, the Borg might suffer an influx of Drones, at times a drain. There's enough buffer capacity there to withstand a Species 8472 war or two, though, and never a pressing need to create or acquire more Drones just for the sake of Drone body acquisition. Babies and pregnant females or female-equivalents are quite often assimilated, for the richness of experience that their addition to the Collective provides, or then as collateral acquisitions; the Borg have no particular reason to abandon a potentially assimilable individual, no desire to fail to bring it to the paradisial realm of the Collective, and while they can put certain less appealing individuals "on hold" (say, the Kazon), they probably won't turn down a collateral baby because he or she cannot be similarly put "on hold" once the parents are assimilated.

Timo Saloniemi

That's a very compelling argument for no Borg reproduction. Ironically your first paragraph pretty well sums up my reasons for preferring them to assimilate only for self-improvement and reproduce for drones, but, if they do reproduce, I suppose a more logical extension of that thinking is that they wouldn't want to leave control of their reproduction to chance, so selective assimilation could provide a better means of troop replenishment.

You also make excellent points about the body itself not being the target, but I suppose they do need the bodies to do work on the ships? I guess the question then becomes how many drones do they need to do actual physical work that can't be handled by nanoprobes via regeneration? I recall from 'Dark Frontier' that the Borg have medical drones whose purpose seems to be repair of other drones, and we know they have tactical drones, so in that light perhaps the duties of drones consist primarily of repair of other drones and assimilation and actual ship maintenance is not something that requires a lot of their attention? So reproduction might not be a necessary factor for the Borg, since they can replenish their needed supply of drones to your proposed threshold by their already existing assimilation goals?

Ok, I think you won me over. :p

We don't know that one ship survived. We know that Admiral Hanson wished that 40 ships could attend, but that he was hoping for more; we know that 39 were lost. Also, we know that there were surviving personnel from the battle who were able to escape from the site of carnage before the Enterprise arrived.

From that we can deduce that at least one warp-capable vessel, but perhaps dozens, indeed left the battle, carrying survivors like Ben Sisko. It would be arbitrary to claim that only one ship escaped; it would be strange to say that more than a fourth of the total strength of the fleet fled. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

OTOH, many of the ships destroyed in the battle may have survived. Sure, all the crew were killed or assimilated, and the hull was full of holes, but it was still a hull; it could have been repaired. Similarly, the US Navy tried to create the impression that no battleships were really lost at Pearl Harbor: all the sunken and destroyed ones save Arizona were raised and repaired or, if necessary, almost completely rebuilt so that it could be claimed that they had been salvaged.

One of the background wrecks in "BoBW" was labeled the Ahwahnee; a ship of this name and (slightly misspelled) registry would later see service in the episode "Redemption", possibly because she had been salvaged and repaired. Many of the almost intact wrecks might have been similarly restored.

Timo Saloniemi

These are also excellent points. Starfleet does seem to play fast and loose with their numbers don't they, not just the Prime Directive? Your assessment of them is spot on, and the comparison to Pearl Harbor is quite appropriate. I've never felt that there were 40 ships at Wolf 359 and only one happened to survive. I've always felt there were something like 47 )there, given Starfleet's fondness for that number. :p

According to Ex Astris Scientia there were at most 15 wrecked ships seen on screen in the episode representing those destroyed, plus the four ships seen in 'Emissary,' two of which we actually see destroyed (Melbourne and Saratoga - I don't believe we actually see the Yamaguchi and Bellerophon destroyed on screen). In the case of the Excelsior model seen in 'Emissary' technically replaces the Nebula prototype seen in 'Best of Both Worlds' so the regular Nebula shown in 'Emissary' (the Bellerophon according to Memory Alpha) could be argued to be the Melbourne wreck from 'BOBW'. The Memory Alpha article also suggests that the Yamaguchi (the Ambassador class ship from 'Emissary') was destroyed but I don't know we have any confirmation of this? In any case, that leaves us a lot of leeway - a maximum of 18 wrecked ships seen, 39 total based on dialog. If I recall correctly, the 39 number comes from the Enterprise's assessment upon arriving at the battle site? I wonder if the other 21 detected were whole wrecks like the others, or just a chunk of primary hull with a transponder in it there, a warp nacelle with a registry number there.

Let's arbitrarily say there were 47 Starfleet ships present, 39 lost. That leaves 8 ships we don't know the fate of. Maybe five were captured by the Borg and deemed worthy of assimilation and sent back to Borg space with drones, and maybe another three escaped with warp drive intact and were able to pick up lifeboats and flee, no doubt in different directions to discourage the Borg from following them. We know that the 18 we saw were relatively intact, so those could have been repaired or rebuilt into service, as probably happened with the Ahwahnee. From dialog in TOS 'The Doomsday Machine' it seemed like the Constellation (which was indeed described as 'wrecked') could have been fully repaired if taken to the proper facilities. I mean, at Wolf 359 the Melbourne had a big chunk of its saucer vaporized, but why couldn't they just replace it with another saucer? I'm sure it wouldn't be that simple, and it would be a bit morbid, but really, why not? In fact, isn't it possible that rebuilding those ships was what Cmmdr. Shelby's duties were going to oversee when they referenced 'rebuilding the fleet' at the end of 'BOBW II?'

And those are just Starfleet ships - if the Klingons (or even Romulans if they ended up being asked) arrived, that complicates the scenario even more. I personally believe there may have been some Klingons present in some capacity but I doubt the Romulans would have sent any ships - the Romulan seen in 'Unity' notwithstanding - he could have been assimilated by the Borg in their destruction of the Romulan colonies along the Neutral Zone). If the Romulans did sent a warbird or two it might have been more likely to sit by under cloak and watch. :rommie: But either way, I'd say no Romulans in the fight.

Regarding the Klingons, there are two possibilities if they came: they arrived soon enough to participate in the battle, and were possibly among the wrecks detected, or they arrived in time to help pick up survivors? If they arrived soon enough to participate and were among the destroyed, I think that thows the 39 number into question of being only Starfleet ships, possibly there was even a Vor'Cha or other Klingon ships captured and sent back to the DQ? I mean, General Korok from 'Unimatrix Zero' had to come from somewhere, right? He could have come from an off-screen battle but who knows.

And regarding the Endeavour mentioned in VGR's 'Scorpion' being the '40th ship' (feels like being the second gunman on the grassy knoll or something) I just don't think it was the only surviving ship of Wolf 359, if indeed it was there, which we don't know. We just know that Amasov encountered the Borg and Janeway was studying him when studying the Borg. If the Endeavour somehow escaped a Borg cube by itself, that would almost put them on a level with Our Heroes on Enterprise and Voyager since only they have appeared to do the same. We know based on 'I, Borg' that Borg scoutships were in Federation space from time to time, so how do we know Captain Amasov didn't encounter one of those?

So yeah, definitely more than one surviving ship, and no reason to think those we saw on screen as wrecks weren't rebuilt.
 
Uh, what? It's thanks to VOY writing that we have this rich information on the Borg culture in the first place. TNG left them at the stage of no-brains automatons, little more than Daleks with legs. ST:FC added the somewhat superfluous and annoying Queen. VOY turned those liabilities into something approximating assets, and it gave the Borg motivation, plans and goals, cunning and hubris, failings and strengths.

It also took the pinnacle of Trek banality, the franchise's badassest villain and titassest female guest star intertwixt, and turned her into one of the most intriguing Trek characters ever. That's so incredible that somebody should get an Emmy for it, although I'll be damned if I know who.

Timo Saloniemi
 
^And at the same time, it invented survivors from Wolf 359 (assimilated people and the Endeavour), changed Tuvok's age at least once, moved him up and down in rank repeatedly without explanation, said that the Yridians were thought to be extinct despite us seeing them regularly on TNG and DS9 amongst many other instances of the writers not really caring about continuity.
 
However, that does not diminish the achievements of the writers who so vastly improved the Borg story. What comparable merits do the other shows have to offer? TNG reinvented the Klingons, almost by accident, which IMHO counts as a close second. DS9 might be argued to have improved upon the TNG Ferengi; ENT, to have redone the Vulcans into something more interesting. But not with the flair of the Borg and Klingon revamps.

And in the end, the continuity hiccups in VOY are no more severe than those of TOS or TNG, and show no lesser degree of caring.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Improved the Borg story? They single handedly took away the "ultimate bad guys" from Star Trek. One little starship managed to take on countless borg ships on it's own, then they were ruined by species 8472.

And then in the end, the very same little ship takes down a massive nexus with 3 shots. Stupid.
 
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