Wolf 359 Questions

[Dukhat]

Getting back to the OP's original questions...

2. Where did the escape pods of ships like the Saratoga do if the entire fleet was destroyed??

That's a good question, and the only logical answer is that Admiral Hanson was being literal when he said that 40 starships were being deployed to Wolf 359, and Admiral Satie was being literal when she stated that 39 ships were destroyed there. So one of the ships presumably survived, picked up all the escape pods, and then booked ass out of there before the Enterprise showed up, since Data couldn't pick up any life signs. Either that, or all of the escape pods had warp capability and left the system on their own, which is highly unlikely.

The new question is, which ship survived? Since we don't even have a definitive list of all the 40 ships, that's kind of hard to say.

 

[Christopher]

It has been proposed before that one ship survived, based on that same logic. It might well have been the Excalibur, for Marika in VGR: "Survival Instinct" was a Bajoran Starfleet officer who was assimilated after being taken from the Excalibur, and the timing is right for her to have been taken at Wolf 359. (We know she was a drone at least eight years before the episode, and BOBW is a little over nine years before the episode.) And the Excalibur was seen in "Redemption" a year later, so if it was at Wolf 359, it must have survived.

 

[Timo]

Of course, half a dozen ships might have survived. 40 was the (possibly rounded) size of the original summons, and Admiral Hanson might have been counting combat vessels only, whereas any noncombatants that happened to be within range might have helped in gathering up the escape pods and forming a ragtag fleet that whisked these possible last remnants of mankind to some distant place of refuge.

Also, we have every reason to think that Starfleet had numerous battles (possibly small in scale, possibly horribly uneven) with the Borg apart from those where Picard and his crew were seen in action. In ST:FC, Picard speaks of Borg advances and UFP retreats that weren't seen in TNG - and overall it makes practical sense for the Borg to keep on probing. The experiences of the Excalibur or of Captain Amasov of the Endeavor might be unrelated to Wolf 359, just as easily as they might be part of that epic battle.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ryan8bit]

I hate that the encyclopedia included the Endeavor as being there when that was purely speculative. I've always just assumed that 40 was a rounded number and that there were no survivors at Wolf 359. If there were survivors, it lessens the impact in BoBW. Why would they not have contacted the Enterprise?

At best I would concede that if 40 was exact, that one of the ships just didn't make it. Or that maybe the Enterprise was supposed to be the 40th.

 

[Christopher]

^^Uhh, we know for a fact that there were survivors of Wolf 359, including Ben and Jake Sisko and the others with them on their escape pod.

 

[WalkinMan]

Other weird bits...not just the escape pods, but also how assimilated drones ended up in the DQ years later...?

I'd also like to see if the 'Queen' ended up frozen in 'Sleep Mode'?

Actually for the escape pods, I can imagine that somehow there were few and they were launched at a point in the battle that was different from where it ended (at the vast starship 'graveyard')...or they were picked up by a starship that rushed off elsewhere during the emergency, perhaps in fear of a reprisal attack.

Maybe this is an inaccurate comparison but in some ways Wolf 359 was the 9/11 for the Federation...to think of each year a memorial service being held there...

 

[Christopher]

Other weird bits...not just the escape pods, but also how assimilated drones ended up in the DQ years later...?

I offered an explanation for that in my recent TNG novel Greater Than the Sum. I asserted that before the cube reached Earth, it sent some assimilated Starfleet personnel back to the DQ in a scout sphere, since after the battle it had more drones aboard than there were roles for them to fill, and they would've just been a drain on its resources at a time when the cube was about to go into battle and needed maximum efficiency.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I hate that the encyclopedia included the Endeavor as being there when that was purely speculative.

Well, its captain did survive long enough to dictate a log about his experiences with the Borg. And there was no evidence that there were any major engagements that this could have come from *other* than Wolf 359.

 

[WalkinMan]

Other weird bits...not just the escape pods, but also how assimilated drones ended up in the DQ years later...?

I offered an explanation for that in my recent TNG novel Greater Than the Sum. I asserted that before the cube reached Earth, it sent some assimilated Starfleet personnel back to the DQ in a scout sphere, since after the battle it had more drones aboard than there were roles for them to fill, and they would've just been a drain on its resources at a time when the cube was about to go into battle and needed maximum efficiency.

Ah! IMO, that's a better explanation than the one in the Shatner novels, IIRC there some sort of long-range teleporter was used.

The sphere explanation has the virtues of relating to First Contact (scout launched from inside cube), and also playing on the vastness of space (that the sphere was not intercepted/detected while leaving--not that it would have done any good).

I suppose also a sphere could have packed in many, many new drones--as seen in Voyager.

 

[Anwar]

I always figured that there were two Borg Cubes in BOBW, one of which had all the colonists from Jouret IV for transport back to the Delta Quadrant.

 

[Plecostomus]

I don't take a strict interpretation of the events of BoBW, I think there were more than 40 ships present, there would have to be given the seriousness of the event. 39/40 were destroyed or disabled. The battle would be closer to Pearl Harbor than 9/11 in my opinion.

Other Borg encounters... Prehaps after BoBW Starfleet declassified some of the "other" encounters, at least to people who needed to know. Encounters beginning with Archer, up to events of Generations, and the "unsanctioned/unapproved/unknown" mission of the RAVEN plus numerous other "unexplained" disappearances/encounters/missing colonies over the years... this could be what Picard was refering to.

I often speculated that Seven's family and the Admrial in charge of the Wolf 359 fleet could have been related. Retcon the stuff from Voyager to BoBW and it ties in nicely. Might be worth a short story to tie it together! (fires up Open Office)

 

[Timo]

Maybe this is an inaccurate comparison but in some ways Wolf 359 was the 9/11 for the Federation...to think of each year a memorial service being held there...

But Wolf 359 was a military engagement the Federation chose to have. Is there a yearly memorial service for Pearl Harbor? Or more accurately, is there one for the Albert Canal, or Sedan, where hopeless resistance against the Nazis crumbled but very few civilian casualties were suffered?

I'd think the 9/11 vigil should be held at Jouret, where a colony was wiped out. Or at Saturn, Jupiter or Mars where the Borg might actually have succeeded in harming UFP infrastructure and population centers rather than merely defeating the UFP military.

And there was no evidence that there were any major engagements that this could have come from *other* than Wolf 359.

As per Picard in ST:FC, there were plenty of engagements we didn't see. And probably the ones Captain Amasov witnessed weren't "major", or he/she would not have survived to tell the story.

Other Borg encounters... Prehaps after BoBW Starfleet declassified some of the "other" encounters, at least to people who needed to know. Encounters beginning with Archer, up to events of Generations, and the "unsanctioned/unapproved/unknown" mission of the RAVEN plus numerous other "unexplained" disappearances/encounters/missing colonies over the years... this could be what Picard was refering to.

Why insist that only Picard could have 24th century adventures with the Borg? The intent of the VOY writers was to fight this notion, with references to other Starfleet ships and personnel having faced the menace.

And Picard specifically condemned the idea of "us" (supposedly the Feds, but perhaps the Alphans in general) giving ground to the Borg. We didn't see that happen on screen, ever, but it could be assumed to be a fairly significant event every time. Just remember how much noise the Maquis made over the ceding of a few outlying colonies. We could well assume that in the aftermath of "I, Borg", the Borg preempted UFP plans to colonize the Argolis Cluster and instead took possession of key planets there, or something.

I often speculated that Seven's family and the Admrial in charge of the Wolf 359 fleet could have been related.

And Picard might have been Kirk's son.

Sorry, I guess it's a soft spot for me or something, but if we get two Nordic surnames (both very common patronymics, one with Swedish spelling, one with Danish), I'm sort of opposed to arbitrarily condensing them to just one.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WalkinMan]

I don't take a strict interpretation of the events of BoBW, I think there were more than 40 ships present, there would have to be given the seriousness of the event. 39/40 were destroyed or disabled. The battle would be closer to Pearl Harbor than 9/11 in my opinion.

Agreed, that is a better comparison. This was a military attack from a foreign power, not a terrorist attack. In a number of ways, the shock of 9/11 has been compared to 12/7/1941...for those who lived at that time, indeed the Wolf 359 comparison might be closer.

Although, for both real-world events, one difference is that Earth had hours advance warning of something coming, starting with Jouret, then the Lalo, then Enterprise.

Is there a yearly memorial service for Pearl Harbor? Or more accurately, is there one for the Albert Canal, or Sedan, where hopeless resistance against the Nazis crumbled but very few civilian casualties were suffered?

I'd think the 9/11 vigil should be held at Jouret, where a colony was wiped out. Or at Saturn, Jupiter or Mars where the Borg might actually have succeeded in harming UFP infrastructure and population centers rather than merely defeating the UFP military

There is a yearly memorial service at Pearl Harbor. I think it would only be appropriate to have one every year at Wolf 359. I'm not sure whether Picard would have attended...which one he might have attended. And perhaps the Jouret, or Ivor colonies would have a service, but unless the colonies were rebuilt, instead memorials might be left at the sites.

 

[SeerSGB]

I always figured that there were two Borg Cubes in BOBW, one of which had all the colonists from Jouret IV for transport back to the Delta Quadrant.

Really don't even need two cubs or a sphere module/shuttle. All it takes is the Borg tractoring and capturing a starship, they board and begin assimilating the crew, a some point the Borg ping a nearby transwarp conduit and jump back to the Delta Quadrant with the captives.

 

[Timo]

Not a bad idea at all. Now we can stop looking for the remaining 15-20 starships in the graveyard - they became raw material for another Borg vessel!

I wonder if the Borg do that with every fleet they encounter. At first, each of their Cubes is a defeated alien starship or ten. Wait a month, and the familiar Cube begins to take shape. And grows. And grows. And grows...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ryan8bit]

^^Uhh, we know for a fact that there were survivors of Wolf 359, including Ben and Jake Sisko and the others with them on their escape pod.

I know, I was referring to surviving starships, not people. If a starship survived the battle, they should have come into contact with the Enterprise.

Well, its captain did survive long enough to dictate a log about his experiences with the Borg. And there was no evidence that there were any major engagements that this could have come from *other* than Wolf 359.

It's kind of funny, but check Janeway's actual lines:

"I've been looking through the personal log entries of all the
Starfleet Captains who encountered the Borg. I've gone over every
engagement, from the moment Q flung the Enterprise into the path of that
first Cube... to the massacre at Wolf Three-Five-Nine. Every battle,
every skirmish... anything that might give me an insight into the mind
of the Collective."

It's odd that she even talks about "every engagement" between Q and Wolf 359. Technically the only engagement in that time (aside from the ones with the Enterprise and Wolf 359 ships) should have been just the Lalo. And what about the engagements afterward?

Anyways, it's a huge stretch to assume that just because Amasov encountered the Borg in some fashion that the ship he was Captain of survived the battle. It's a case of fanwank trying to explain the inconsistency of a possible rounding off of a number!

With Amasov, he may have been at Wolf 359, like Sisko. And if Janeway had mentioned Sisko, she would've said, "Commander Sisko of Deep Space Nine said..." Does this imply that DS9 was at the battle?

There's just several illogical leaps you have to take to believe this, and I'd rather take the side of simplicity that doesn't also contradict common sense.

 

[Timo]

If a starship survived the battle, they should have come into contact with the Enterprise.

Why? Lingering on the battlefield would be the absolute last thing a surviving starship would attempt. Chasing after the Cube would be one possibility, either with the intent of keeping on firing, or with the intent of joining defenses at Earth; realizing that resistance was futile, and heading in the exact opposite direction at maximum warp with survivors onboard, would be a more realistic one.

If the surviving ships took the first option, they probably were no longer surviving when the E-D reached Sol. If they took the second one, they would have refused to answer the hails of the E-D, suspecting a Borg ruse or at the very least fearing a comm trace that would compromise their escape.

It's odd that she even talks about "every engagement" between Q and Wolf 359. Technically the only engagement in that time (aside from the ones with the Enterprise and Wolf 359 ships) should have been just the Lalo. And what about the engagements afterward?

That is indeed curious. Perhaps we should assume Janeway is, despite the use of the word "moment", listing these things in some order other than the chronological one? Picard lost 18 crew in "Q Who?", and 11,000 were lost at Wolf 359, so the assorted skirmishes she talks about could be those with casualties between 18 and 11,000. It sounds quite possible that there would have been no "skirmishes" with less than 18 casualties, unless one counts those with zero casualties, and Janeway probably wouldn't.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

There were no ships destroyed by the Borg at Wolf 359.

All the vessels there imploded due to the negligence of their captains.

[Goes back to eating meal worms]

 

[Christopher]

In First Contact, Picard does suggest that there have been multiple Borg assaults on the Federation -- he had that speech about how "every time" they pushed forward and Starfleet pushed them back. There may well have been other Borg incidents that we weren't shown in TNG. It's a big galaxy, and not every important thing that happens in it would happen to starships named Enterprise. (Or Defiant or Voyager.)

 

[PhoenixIreland]

In First Contact, Picard does suggest that there have been multiple Borg assaults on the Federation -- he had that speech about how "every time" they pushed forward and Starfleet pushed them back. There may well have been other Borg incidents that we weren't shown in TNG. It's a big galaxy, and not every important thing that happens in it would happen to starships named Enterprise. (Or Defiant or Voyager.)

Novels like Vendetta would suggest many assaults.

It also brings us back to the question why did they not send 15-20 cubes in one burst some time and kept always sending one.