William Shatner on Howard Stern

[pookha]

How did they weaken Spock's character? I guess for Sarek and McCoy you could say they showed them old and Sarek's case dying, but I think that had more to do with the fact that TNG took place when these characters were old. I don't see how showing them that way "weakened" them as characters.

I wanted to use the female capacity to avoid an answer to any question but it does seem unavoidable.

In the old canon: "The Making of Star Trek" pp 225-226
"Complete adherence to logic is the primary motivating factor in the Vulcan mental process. Of necessity, complete suppression of emotions is required, lest logic be influenced in any way.

Over a period of many centuries, the Vulcans have both practiced both total concentration and complete suppression of emotions. From the time of his birth, a Vulcan child is taught that to show emotion is highly improper, that it is considered an extreme breach of good taste....Vulcans long ago concluded that emotion was dangerous, set about to repress it and replace it with logic. Century after century, through practice and custom they repressed emotion until they became almost incapable of it...."

TNG portrayed Sarek as suffering from the syndrome which makes him lose emotional control. IMO the old canon says Vulcans HAVE less emotions & feelings than Humans -- not just a matter of suppression, it was an evolutionary process. TNG "Sarek" claimed Vulcans have powerful emotions that they learn to suppress. .

actually that vulcans still have to repress their emotions is present in amok time and other places.

that vulcans suppress their emotions most of the time is why the pon farr exists.

 

[maryh]

actually that vulcans still have to repress their emotions is present in amok time and other places.

that vulcans suppress their emotions most of the time is why the pon farr exists.

It isn't correct to judge pure bred Vulcans behavior by the hybrid Spock's.

Behavior during the pon-farr is not emotional in nature rather it is inborn and instinctive and physiological like the sex drive. It is hard wired and they cannot evolve themselves out of it or suppress it without eliminating the species. It is a drive like hunger which exists for the survival of all living species - not exactly emotional. Nonemotional species like the salmon, deer etc also have mating/rutting seasons and are not particularly emotional species.

Humans also have a sex drive that may or maynot be associated with emotions. Lots of one-nite-stands, use em and lose em, sex for pleasure with no emotional strings attached types out there. It stems from other areas of the brain, the unconscious base instinctive areas, not the areas for emotions and feeling.

Many times throughout TOS and the subsequent movies we were told Spock had feelings and emotions BECAUSE he had a human mother. We knew he had to struggle more than the "real" Vulcans to suppress them because of his human side. Lots of TOS had scenes which others tried to pull the human side out of Spock. It seems that many authors have expanded this to all Vulcans which IMO redefines Vulcans, and I see it in the later incarnations. Vulcans have lost their power - aloof, mysterious, cold, intimidating, logical and oblivious to/ not understanding of feelings and emotions.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

actually that vulcans still have to repress their emotions is present in amok time and other places.

that vulcans suppress their emotions most of the time is why the pon farr exists.

Is that established anyplace?

Pon-Farr, and all the other rituals we see in Amok Time, date to "the beginning" and seemed to me to be things that were present before the Surak Reformation.

I've heard this argument before... ie, that it's just because of the emotional suppression... that they Pon Farr every seven earth years. But that's not logical.

It sounds like someone assuming that these folks just get really horny after seven years.

But the point wasn't that... it was that VULCANS AREN'T HUMANS, and that their biology is different. This was analogous to salmon returning to their spawning grounds and so forth. It's a biological drive.

One might assume that the Vulcan year is about seven earth years... that would make this make even more sense. Basically, that every "seasonal cycle" Vulcans are driven to mate... which makes perfect sense if they're extraordinarily likely to reproduce at that time.

This doesn't mean that they couldn't, possibly, have sex at other times, but at this time they'd be FERTILE. Sort of like how human females become more sexually-driven when they're ovulating.

Lots of precedents for closely-timed, biologically-clocked reproductive cycles in nature. But NO precedents for "getting really horny on a clockwork schedule" because you're repressing.

I prefer the "salmon" analogy.

 

[Samuel T. Cogley]

Yeah, but if replying to your drivel helps me get through these ridiculous 50 posts I need just to get a fracking avatar, so be it.

Something tells me you are never going to make it that far.