will Old Spock destroy all TOS storylines? (movie spoilers)

[Jayson]

But those dangerous events are one thing that drive humanities development, and thats one thing I don't see ever changing. They are tragic, they are painful, but as Kirk says himself, "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life"

You're talking about the needs of the story - to confront the characters with challenges. I'm talking about the impulse of the characters within a story - to try to mitigate or evade those challenges wherever possible. Like we all do in real life.

The writers will be able to throw challenges at the characters regardless, since they are in total control of everything that happens. There's no reason to have the characters weirdly try to help the writers inflict trouble on them.

Spock can warn Starfleet about everything he knows about, and the writers will just invent a hundred other things that Spock doesn't know about. That shouldn't stop Spock from trying to warn Starfleet. He doesn't realize he's a character in a story, and his warnings are futile and will merely result in a cascade of new Doomsday Machines to replace the one he knows about.

I just want to see Spock do what he should do, namely try to warn Starfleet to the best of his ability, if for no other reason than that it would be stupid and irresponsible for him not to. Plus, do we really want to see a replay of the Doomsday Machine we know about?

I'd rather that threat be eradicated off screen, and the writers get cracking on the threats that will occur regardless of Spock's warnings - or even better, because of Spock's warnings. What if the Doomsday Machine was slated to mow down some brand new alien threat, which now will be spared to wreak havok on the Federation? Hee hee.

So, let me ask you this. If you could go back and stop Hitler before he came to power, would you? I agree, I think anyones first instinct would be a resounding Yes! But would it be the best choice? The events of that war were terrible, and I'm sure people, even to this day, still grieve over the lives lost. But the effects of that war, the alliance of powers, women getting to work jobs that were normally "men only" jobs, and as a result possibly speeding up womens equality might not have happened, or atleast have taken a great deal longer. So with that, would you still do it? Now I could see someone saying "Hey, keep an eye on that guy." but more then that I think might be more damaging then helpful.

Edit: And just to cover my bases, I am NOT, in any way, condoning the actions of Hitler. So hopefully no one will call me a nazi or any silly thing like that.

Your Nazi example isn't acurate since the universe in the Abramsverse has already been altered and has been changed for 20 years. The example you want is what would happen if the timeline was changed years before World War II happen.

In this scenario then yes you should stop the Nazi's because the changes in the timeline means they could win this time. Or they might kill all the Jews. There is no reason for Spock to try and preserve a future that won't even happen in this new timeline, whether he interfere's or not. Therfore there is no reason to not warn people of the dangers that there is a good change of still exsiting in this timeline. Granted some of his warnings might be for moot. For all we know Nero might have destroyed the Botany Bay, for target practice while he was flying around in space for 2o something years. All Spock can do is mention that there is proably chance that Khan might still be alive in this universe. That way he can be neutralized as a threat before he can cause trouble like he did in the Prime Universe. It's possible the timeline changes have already created a scenario that eliminates this threat but there is also a chance it hasn't. You just don't know how things have been altered. All Spock knows is there is a chance he is still out there in the Botany Bay and it wouldn't hurt to go and take a look, just in case.

Jason

 

[Kchunda]

If memory seves in TOS, an all vulcan vessel was destroyed. I could see spock telling the federation about that given the loss of vulcan life.

I agree, thats one that I definitely see him telling the others about. But I think for the most part, it will probably continue pretty close to the original. Minor things might change, like blowing up the botany bay before they cause probablems. But Spock also has to think about residual effects. Starfleet banned Genesis presumably because of its implication as a weapon, but then they didn't have a real world example of that use until Kahn stole it. Who knows what might have happened to Genesis if Kahn wasn't there.

Ah, but will Genesis actually be developed in this new timeline? Kirk went to the Academy later, and presumably Gary Mitchell - the friend who in the Prime timeline set him up with a blonde lab technician, who could very well have been Carol Marcus - had long since graduated. If Kirk and Carol never met, then there would be no David (or at least no David with half of Kirk's genes) to come up with the idea of using protomatter to get the Genesis project up and running; without this inherited inspiration to drive the project, maybe it never gets off the ground.

Just watched RoK this weekend and was thinking of the Genesis Device in the nuUniverse. Like your thinking about the subtle changes that might delay the development of the program. . . but now that a founding member of the Federation is looking for a new home, could it be possible that Genesis would come back into play?

One would think that there's a limited number of M-class planets within our neighborhood that doesn't already have some form of life (even a microbe), and I doubt the Vulcans would be okay with displacing an established form of life in favor of their own. So if Genesis could be used to convert a lifeless rock in an orbit somewhat similar to Vulcan, I think that would be enough for Starfleet to get the program back on track (or develop it in the first place).

Now add in the fact that Klingons are still hostile towards the Feds and could be at war with the Rommies over Nero's "47 warbird attack". . . Maybe they would like to steal the technology in order to replicate it and bring both of their adversaries to their knees.

Kinda reminds me of the whole "Nuclear Iran" issue. . . They say it would be used for peaceful purposes, but the UN is strongly against it and some member countries would use military force to deny them. If Klingons did happen to steal some information or a prototype, think Section 31 would just sit around to see what might happen?

Could ya'll see this being a possible setup for the sequel? Or is it too ST: III-ish?

 

[timelord1010]

As for the Genesis device, if Kirk didn't meet Carol Marcus and have a child with her then it isn't likely that the Genesis device will be created. I was thinking if there was enough debris left after Vulcan's destruction the Genesis device could have been used if it was invented and perfected.

As for events that happened in the Prime universe happening close to the same way as in the Alternate universe IMO it would be hard to believe. Of course the writers can do anything they want, but it would be highly unlikely for Kirk and the Enterprise it be in the right place at the right time to run into the Botany Bay or the Doomsday Machine, especially if the 5 year mission was delayed. What about all of the things Kirk encountered before he became Captain when he served on the Farragut and encountered the creature that feeds on human blood (Obsession) that when he is Captain of the Enterprise he destroyed with Scotty's homemade anti-matter bomb? All of the life experience Kirk Prime had Alternate Kirk does not have. Spock Prime might know the outcomes of events but alot of them were done with the help of Kirk's past history and prior career in Starfleet.

 

[Kaziarl]

As for the Genesis device, if Kirk didn't meet Carol Marcus and have a child with her then it isn't likely that the Genesis device will be created. I was thinking if there was enough debris left after Vulcan's destruction the Genesis device could have been used if it was invented and perfected.

As for events that happened in the Prime universe happening close to the same way as in the Alternate universe IMO it would be hard to believe. Of course the writers can do anything they want, but it would be highly unlikely for Kirk and the Enterprise it be in the right place at the right time to run into the Botany Bay or the Doomsday Machine, especially if the 5 year mission was delayed. What about all of the things Kirk encountered before he became Captain when he served on the Farragut and encountered the creature that feeds on human blood (Obsession) that when he is Captain of the Enterprise he destroyed with Scotty's homemade anti-matter bomb? All of the life experience Kirk Prime had Alternate Kirk does not have. Spock Prime might know the outcomes of events but alot of them were done with the help of Kirk's past history and prior career in Starfleet.

Some things will be the same I think. Young picard wanting to reach for the stars for example. Some events will likely be the same, I don't see these events stopping the eventual explosion on Praxis. But there will also likely be many differences. They might have the Enterprise helping the vulcans find a new home for a while, further delaying other events.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

now that a founding member of the Federation is looking for a new home, could it be possible that Genesis would come back into play?

I don't think so. Spock Prime said that they have already found a suitable planet for the Vulcan survivors to colonize. They don't need Genesis or anything like that. They already have a new home.

 

[Kchunda]

now that a founding member of the Federation is looking for a new home, could it be possible that Genesis would come back into play?

I don't think so. Spock Prime said that they have already found a suitable planet for the Vulcan survivors to colonize. They don't need Genesis or anything like that. They already have a new home.

Hmm, I must have missed that. I thought they said they were going "to start a colony", and I assumed it meant they were going to start looking - not that they already found one.

link: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Vulcan_colony

Regarding Carol Marcus, it looks like she was the developer of the project, but it doesn't say that she developed it as a result of her involvement with Kirk. . . Maybe she's just a leading molecular biologist in the Federation and is part of a research team working with the Vulcan Science Council. . . or whatever's left of it.

At this point in the timeline (or around sequel time), I don't think we would be past the theoretical phase. . . but even that in the wrong hands could be dangerous.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

now that a founding member of the Federation is looking for a new home, could it be possible that Genesis would come back into play?

I don't think so. Spock Prime said that they have already found a suitable planet for the Vulcan survivors to colonize. They don't need Genesis or anything like that. They already have a new home.

Hmm, I must have missed that. I thought they said they were going "to start a colony", and I assumed it meant they were going to start looking - not that they already found one.

No, Spock Prime definitely said that they have already located a suitable planet. He says this in his conversation with his younger self. He says this:

And, yet, you can be in two places at once. I urge you to remain in Starfleet. I have already located a suitable planet in which to establish a Vulcan colony. Spock, in this case, do yourself a favor: Put aside logic. Do what feels right.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Temis -- I think you've stumbled upon the next film. If Prime Spock refuses to help with his knowledge of what's in store for the universe, millions will die. If he does help, perhaps even greater catastrophes await. Even his mere presence goes against the nature of time and causes multiple problems and certain calamities.

Coming in 2011... Star Trek: Future Imperfect

Tag Line: Spock must die!!!


If only there was someone from this alternate universe's future who could come back and save Spock from himself. If only...

 

[Theodore Jay Miller]

Temis -- I think you've stumbled upon the next film. If Prime Spock refuses to help with his knowledge of what's in store for the universe, millions will die. If he does help, perhaps even greater catastrophes await. Even his mere presence goes against the nature of time and causes multiple problems and certain calamities.

Coming in 2011... Star Trek: Future Imperfect

Tag Line: Spock must die!!!

If only there was someone from this alternate universe's future who could come back and save Spock from himself. If only...

So William Shatner as Future-Kirk from this timeline comes back to change things, and then in the movie after that George Takei as Future-Sulu from THAT timeline comes back, ...

 

[RobertVA]

Let's not forget he also lived through the 24th century so he would also want to warn Starfleet about the Borg and Dominion and would want to make sure Starfleet doesn't have a ship in the badlands during the events of "Caretaker".

Also it isn't just the events that can change. His understand of science and engineering advancements would come in handy. The Federation might actually have the technlogical advantage in case a war does break out with the Dominion and Starfleet has had close calls with the Borg. This would help them in any situation with them, sort of like how starfleet was helped in getting prepared for the Borg when Q introduced them.

Jason

Unfortunately a Federation ship crossing the Delta Quadrant is a necessity. The Borg are going to provoke a war with Species 8492 that will threaten the entire galaxy (and possibly other non-fluidic galaxies) and are going to need the equivelent ofEMH's expertise developing the modified assimilation nanotech to defend the galaxy from Species 8492's retaliatory invasion.

 

[Jayson]

Let's not forget he also lived through the 24th century so he would also want to warn Starfleet about the Borg and Dominion and would want to make sure Starfleet doesn't have a ship in the badlands during the events of "Caretaker".

Also it isn't just the events that can change. His understand of science and engineering advancements would come in handy. The Federation might actually have the technlogical advantage in case a war does break out with the Dominion and Starfleet has had close calls with the Borg. This would help them in any situation with them, sort of like how starfleet was helped in getting prepared for the Borg when Q introduced them.

Jason

Unfortunately a Federation ship crossing the Delta Quadrant is a necessity. The Borg are going to provoke a war with Species 8492 that will threaten the entire galaxy (and possibly other non-fluidic galaxies) and are going to need the equivelent ofEMH's expertise developing the modified assimilation nanotech to defend the galaxy from Species 8492's retaliatory invasion.

That might be a problem, but we don't even know if the EMH will be created in this universe. To me this is a good reason for Spock to provide not just info on events, but on scientific knoweldge. Perhaps you don't need the EMH if Spock already has the info. At the very least if Starfleet is warned they can start working on thier version of the modified assimilation nanotech. At the very least Starfleet could try and make first contact with Species 8492 and hope they might be able to make peace with them before the Borg try and assimilate them.

Jason