will Old Spock destroy all TOS storylines? (movie spoilers)

[Temis the Vorta]

I don't see why Spock needs to take personal command of Vulcan II - surely the Federation will help establish the new Vulcan colony and provide all the protection they need. Spock's unique competence is in knowing the future. Starfleet would be insane not to make use of that, for everyone's good.

Vulcan II? Really?

Whatever they end up calling it. Vulcan Lite gets my vote.

The most he'd really ever have to do is say "Nope, not there! It's gonna be eaten by a doomsday machine."

Or just send Starfleet out to kick the thing's ass before it gets anywhere near Vulcan Lite.

Uncle Spock doesn't know the future because the future will play out differently.

He can make some educated guesses. The Doomsday Machine, the Hortas and the Guardian of Forever are some things I wouldn't expect all the timeline changes caused by Nero and Spock to have any impact on at all. Why would they?

 

[Jayson]

Let's not forget he also lived through the 24th century so he would also want to warn Starfleet about the Borg and Dominion and would want to make sure Starfleet doesn't have a ship in the badlands during the events of "Caretaker".

Also it isn't just the events that can change. His understand of science and engineering advancements would come in handy. The Federation might actually have the technlogical advantage in case a war does break out with the Dominion and Starfleet has had close calls with the Borg. This would help them in any situation with them, sort of like how starfleet was helped in getting prepared for the Borg when Q introduced them.

Jason

 

[Kaziarl]

Let's not forget he also lived through the 24th century so he would also want to warn Starfleet about the Borg and Dominion and would want to make sure Starfleet doesn't have a ship in the badlands during the events of "Caretaker".

Also it isn't just the events that can change. His understand of science and engineering advancements would come in handy. The Federation might actually have the technlogical advantage in case a war does break out with the Dominion and Starfleet has had close calls with the Borg. This would help them in any situation with them, sort of like how starfleet was helped in getting prepared for the Borg when Q introduced them.

Jason

Those are reasons I don't think he would say anything, or atleast not much. Maybe give voyager some better armaments, better shields, but I don't think he'd stop them. Same with the borg and the dominion. These things were, from my point of view atleast, character builders for them. Yes, many people suffered for it, but the federation was stronger afterwards for it.

 

[Jayson]

Let's not forget he also lived through the 24th century so he would also want to warn Starfleet about the Borg and Dominion and would want to make sure Starfleet doesn't have a ship in the badlands during the events of "Caretaker".

Also it isn't just the events that can change. His understand of science and engineering advancements would come in handy. The Federation might actually have the technlogical advantage in case a war does break out with the Dominion and Starfleet has had close calls with the Borg. This would help them in any situation with them, sort of like how starfleet was helped in getting prepared for the Borg when Q introduced them.

Jason

Those are reasons I don't think he would say anything, or atleast not much. Maybe give voyager some better armaments, better shields, but I don't think he'd stop them. Same with the borg and the dominion. These things were, from my point of view atleast, character builders for them. Yes, many people suffered for it, but the federation was stronger afterwards for it.

Those "character building" moments can get people killed and the Federation assimilated or destroyed. Remember the timeline won't play out like it did in the prime timeline. Spock can't predict the future so much as he knows a few variables out there that will be somewhat constitent from his trekverse. Let's not forget that Spock was a scientist. He would look at the situation I would think from a logical and rational point-of-view. If he has info that can save lives then there is really no reason to hold back. It proably helps that the Federation has been pretty responsible in handling new technology. I do think Spock would study the Federation and how it might have changed since the Kelvin incident to make sure there still trustworthy. I don't Spock would start spilling his guts until he gathered more info on the poltical climate of this trekverse.

If he find thems untrustworthy it might shape how he delves out his info. For example if he finds this Federation to be to militaristic then he might not be willing to share weapon advancements but he would proably still warn them of the Dominion and Borg so they can at least try and avoid meeting these aliens.

Jason

 

[Shawnster]

He may not warn about everything. He may not know about everything. The events of VOY's Caretaker, for example, may be completely safe. Why should Prime Spock know or care about every little thing?

Big events he definitely will know or remember. This doesn't preclude those events from happening. They just can happen differently. The Doomsday Machine will still need stopped so a starship will need to be sent to it. This starship will need to have augmented weapons capable of immobilizing the Doomsday Machine (explosive capability of a starship's warp core). Khan will still need to be picked up. While the temptation of leaving him adrift in suspended animation is great why would you want to run the risk of someone else (Human, Klingon, Romulan, Ferengi, etc...) of finding and releasing him?

Prime Spock can brief and warn the Federation and Starfleet about dangers such as the Borg and Dominion. Without detailed technical knowledge, however, he may not know how to defend or defeat these foes. They'll still have to figure these things out for themselves.

Other events such as the crazy loons at the Tantalus penal colony or Garth of Izar's coup may not even happen. Did Kirk ever go to Tarsus IV? Was there a Kodos the Exictuioner in this timeline?

 

[jhouston6]

If memory seves in TOS, an all vulcan vessel was destroyed. I could see spock telling the federation about that given the loss of vulcan life.

 

[Kaziarl]

If memory seves in TOS, an all vulcan vessel was destroyed. I could see spock telling the federation about that given the loss of vulcan life.

I agree, thats one that I definitely see him telling the others about. But I think for the most part, it will probably continue pretty close to the original. Minor things might change, like blowing up the botany bay before they cause probablems. But Spock also has to think about residual effects. Starfleet banned Genesis presumably because of its implication as a weapon, but then they didn't have a real world example of that use until Kahn stole it. Who knows what might have happened to Genesis if Kahn wasn't there.

 

[All-Seeing I]

If memory seves in TOS, an all vulcan vessel was destroyed. I could see spock telling the federation about that given the loss of vulcan life.

I agree, thats one that I definitely see him telling the others about. But I think for the most part, it will probably continue pretty close to the original. Minor things might change, like blowing up the botany bay before they cause probablems. But Spock also has to think about residual effects. Starfleet banned Genesis presumably because of its implication as a weapon, but then they didn't have a real world example of that use until Kahn stole it. Who knows what might have happened to Genesis if Kahn wasn't there.

Ah, but will Genesis actually be developed in this new timeline? Kirk went to the Academy later, and presumably Gary Mitchell - the friend who in the Prime timeline set him up with a blonde lab technician, who could very well have been Carol Marcus - had long since graduated. If Kirk and Carol never met, then there would be no David (or at least no David with half of Kirk's genes) to come up with the idea of using protomatter to get the Genesis project up and running; without this inherited inspiration to drive the project, maybe it never gets off the ground.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think Mirror, Mirror is safe - in a sense. Spock knows he must send Kirk and an away team to the MU in order to make contact with MU Spock and help overthrown the Terran Empire

No, he doesn't have to do that. It's already been done - from the original universe, just as we saw it.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Those "character building" moments can get people killed and the Federation assimilated or destroyed.

Yeah, why would Spock want to build anyone's character by exposing them to unnecessary danger? That would be downright arrogant and irresponsible of him - way out of character. He'd warn people of threats to the extent he was able to, and then let them use their judgment how to respond to those threats.

If memory seves in TOS, an all vulcan vessel was destroyed. I could see spock telling the federation about that given the loss of vulcan life.

That's one of the timeline details that Trek XI has probably changed - I would doubt that vessel will exist now, or if it does, that it would be in exactly the same place at exactly the same time.

I think Mirror, Mirror is safe - in a sense. Spock knows he must send Kirk and an away team to the MU in order to make contact with MU Spock and help overthrown the Terran Empire

No, he doesn't have to do that. It's already been done - from the original universe, just as we saw it.

That raises an interesting problem - is the MU linked to the original universe the same as the MU linked to this new universe? I'm not altogether certain what the logic would be - I'm thinking, two "regular" universes, two MU universes. Anyway there's only one way to know - go check.

 

[Kaziarl]

Those "character building" moments can get people killed and the Federation assimilated or destroyed.

Yeah, why would Spock want to build anyone's character by exposing them to unnecessary danger? That would be downright arrogant and irresponsible of him - way out of character. He'd warn people of threats to the extent he was able to, and then let them use their judgment how to respond to those threats.

If memory seves in TOS, an all vulcan vessel was destroyed. I could see spock telling the federation about that given the loss of vulcan life.

That's one of the timeline details that Trek XI has probably changed - I would doubt that vessel will exist now, or if it does, that it would be in exactly the same place at exactly the same time.

I think Mirror, Mirror is safe - in a sense. Spock knows he must send Kirk and an away team to the MU in order to make contact with MU Spock and help overthrown the Terran Empire

No, he doesn't have to do that. It's already been done - from the original universe, just as we saw it.

That raises an interesting problem - is the MU linked to the original universe the same as the MU linked to this new universe? I'm not altogether certain what the logic would be - I'm thinking, two "regular" universes, two MU universes. Anyway there's only one way to know - go check.

But those dangerous events are one thing that drive humanities development, and thats one thing I don't see ever changing. They are tragic, they are painful, but as Kirk says himself, "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life"

 

[Jayson]

Those "character building" moments can get people killed and the Federation assimilated or destroyed.

Yeah, why would Spock want to build anyone's character by exposing them to unnecessary danger? That would be downright arrogant and irresponsible of him - way out of character. He'd warn people of threats to the extent he was able to, and then let them use their judgment how to respond to those threats.

That's one of the timeline details that Trek XI has probably changed - I would doubt that vessel will exist now, or if it does, that it would be in exactly the same place at exactly the same time.

No, he doesn't have to do that. It's already been done - from the original universe, just as we saw it.

That raises an interesting problem - is the MU linked to the original universe the same as the MU linked to this new universe? I'm not altogether certain what the logic would be - I'm thinking, two "regular" universes, two MU universes. Anyway there's only one way to know - go check.

But those dangerous events are one thing that drive humanities development, and thats one thing I don't see ever changing. They are tragic, they are painful, but as Kirk says himself, "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life"

Humans and aliens will still face death. There are still hostile aliens out there and the Federation will simply face new challenges. All Spock can do is help provide info that can prevent future mistakes from happening like they happened in his trekverse. For example just because the Federation will know about the Borg, years before it did in the Prime universe doesn't mean they don't have to prepare for the day when the Borg do show up. It just means they might be able to save lives by having access to info on how to fight them. This is especially important because things will play out differently in the future. You can't be content to asume Will Riker will save the day in the future so there is no reason to worry. The 24th century will be different and unpreditable and you can't asume things will simply work out in the end when you don't know what the future will bring.

Looking at the future in the Abramsvere must be sort of like looking at puzzle were some of pieces have been replaced with puzzle pieces from another puzzle. The old puzzle pieces won't fit into the puzzle anymore but they do offer clues as to how the old puzzle might have looked if the missing pieces hadn't been replaced with new ones from another puzzle.

Jason

 

[Kaziarl]

Looking at the future in the Abramsvere must be sort of like looking at puzzle were some of pieces have been replaced with puzzle pieces from another puzzle. The old puzzle pieces won't fit into the puzzle anymore but they do offer clues as to how the old puzzle might have looked if the missing pieces hadn't been replaced with new ones from another puzzle.

Jason

I'd say more like a 500 piece puzzle and we only have a small number of them. Certainly fun to think about though.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

But those dangerous events are one thing that drive humanities development, and thats one thing I don't see ever changing. They are tragic, they are painful, but as Kirk says himself, "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life"

You're talking about the needs of the story - to confront the characters with challenges. I'm talking about the impulse of the characters within a story - to try to mitigate or evade those challenges wherever possible. Like we all do in real life.

The writers will be able to throw challenges at the characters regardless, since they are in total control of everything that happens. There's no reason to have the characters weirdly try to help the writers inflict trouble on them.

Spock can warn Starfleet about everything he knows about, and the writers will just invent a hundred other things that Spock doesn't know about. That shouldn't stop Spock from trying to warn Starfleet. He doesn't realize he's a character in a story, and his warnings are futile and will merely result in a cascade of new Doomsday Machines to replace the one he knows about.

I just want to see Spock do what he should do, namely try to warn Starfleet to the best of his ability, if for no other reason than that it would be stupid and irresponsible for him not to. Plus, do we really want to see a replay of the Doomsday Machine we know about?

I'd rather that threat be eradicated off screen, and the writers get cracking on the threats that will occur regardless of Spock's warnings - or even better, because of Spock's warnings. What if the Doomsday Machine was slated to mow down some brand new alien threat, which now will be spared to wreak havok on the Federation? Hee hee.

 

[Kaziarl]

But those dangerous events are one thing that drive humanities development, and thats one thing I don't see ever changing. They are tragic, they are painful, but as Kirk says himself, "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life"

You're talking about the needs of the story - to confront the characters with challenges. I'm talking about the impulse of the characters within a story - to try to mitigate or evade those challenges wherever possible. Like we all do in real life.

The writers will be able to throw challenges at the characters regardless, since they are in total control of everything that happens. There's no reason to have the characters weirdly try to help the writers inflict trouble on them.

Spock can warn Starfleet about everything he knows about, and the writers will just invent a hundred other things that Spock doesn't know about. That shouldn't stop Spock from trying to warn Starfleet. He doesn't realize he's a character in a story, and his warnings are futile and will merely result in a cascade of new Doomsday Machines to replace the one he knows about.

I just want to see Spock do what he should do, namely try to warn Starfleet to the best of his ability, if for no other reason than that it would be stupid and irresponsible for him not to. Plus, do we really want to see a replay of the Doomsday Machine we know about?

I'd rather that threat be eradicated off screen, and the writers get cracking on the threats that will occur regardless of Spock's warnings - or even better, because of Spock's warnings. What if the Doomsday Machine was slated to mow down some brand new alien threat, which now will be spared to wreak havok on the Federation? Hee hee.

So, let me ask you this. If you could go back and stop Hitler before he came to power, would you? I agree, I think anyones first instinct would be a resounding Yes! But would it be the best choice? The events of that war were terrible, and I'm sure people, even to this day, still grieve over the lives lost. But the effects of that war, the alliance of powers, women getting to work jobs that were normally "men only" jobs, and as a result possibly speeding up womens equality might not have happened, or atleast have taken a great deal longer. So with that, would you still do it? Now I could see someone saying "Hey, keep an eye on that guy." but more then that I think might be more damaging then helpful.

Edit: And just to cover my bases, I am NOT, in any way, condoning the actions of Hitler. So hopefully no one will call me a nazi or any silly thing like that.

 

[timelord1010]

But those dangerous events are one thing that drive humanities development, and thats one thing I don't see ever changing. They are tragic, they are painful, but as Kirk says himself, "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life"

You're talking about the needs of the story - to confront the characters with challenges. I'm talking about the impulse of the characters within a story - to try to mitigate or evade those challenges wherever possible. Like we all do in real life.

The writers will be able to throw challenges at the characters regardless, since they are in total control of everything that happens. There's no reason to have the characters weirdly try to help the writers inflict trouble on them.

Spock can warn Starfleet about everything he knows about, and the writers will just invent a hundred other things that Spock doesn't know about. That shouldn't stop Spock from trying to warn Starfleet. He doesn't realize he's a character in a story, and his warnings are futile and will merely result in a cascade of new Doomsday Machines to replace the one he knows about.

I just want to see Spock do what he should do, namely try to warn Starfleet to the best of his ability, if for no other reason than that it would be stupid and irresponsible for him not to. Plus, do we really want to see a replay of the Doomsday Machine we know about?

I'd rather that threat be eradicated off screen, and the writers get cracking on the threats that will occur regardless of Spock's warnings - or even better, because of Spock's warnings. What if the Doomsday Machine was slated to mow down some brand new alien threat, which now will be spared to wreak havok on the Federation? Hee hee.

So, let me ask you this. If you could go back and stop Hitler before he came to power, would you? I agree, I think anyones first instinct would be a resounding Yes! But would it be the best choice? The events of that war were terrible, and I'm sure people, even to this day, still grieve over the lives lost. But the effects of that war, the alliance of powers, women getting to work jobs that were normally "men only" jobs, and as a result possibly speeding up womens equality might not have happened, or atleast have taken a great deal longer. So with that, would you still do it? Now I could see someone saying "Hey, keep an eye on that guy." but more then that I think might be more damaging then helpful.

Edit: And just to cover my bases, I am NOT, in any way, condoning the actions of Hitler. So hopefully no one will call me a nazi or any silly thing like that.

No, if anything someone will call you a temporal cold war nazi like in the "Cold Front" episode of Enterprise.

I agree with you that time should not be altered. Just from Nero messing around in this Universe the construction of the Constitution class was delayed and all of the adventures and experiences Kirk had on other starships before he took command of Enterprise are gone. All of his life experiences are gone.
My big question is how many years are we from events like Space Seed or Doomsday machine? Will there even be a 5 year mission of exploration since the fleet lost alot of ships fighting Nero?

 

[I am not Spock]

Things that will probably still happen as they did in the original timeline:

-Doomsday Machine
-The Borg
-V'Ger
-Khan and his buddies are still out there in the Botany Bay
-The Dominion
-Other races they haven't yet made contact with are still out there. The Ferengi, etc. Although it seems in this timeline, they know of the Cardassians earlier than in the other one. (Uhura orders a Cardassian drink). For that matter, will Spock warn Starfleet about the Cardie/Bajoran occupation? Why should all those Bajorans suffer?

 

[I am not Spock]

I like Temis' idea that the Doomsday Machine could have been designed by some ancient race as a means of fighting off a powerful invader (such as the Borg), who are now free to walk all over the Federation, after the DM's destruction.

 

[I am not Spock]

That raises an interesting problem - is the MU linked to the original universe the same as the MU linked to this new universe? I'm not altogether certain what the logic would be - I'm thinking, two "regular" universes, two MU universes. Anyway there's only one way to know - go check.

According to TNG's Parallels, there are infinite universes out there. So there may well be the MU counterpart to the Prime Timeline as we know it, and another different MU counterpart to the Abramsverse.

I'd like to see Abrams take on the MU,actually.

 

[Kaziarl]

I think, if nothing else, this brings up many questions. It well certainly be interesting to see what happens.