Will Burnham make Kirk looks so ordinary in accomplishment?

[fireproof78]

Its 'cause Timo's entire theory is predicated on a logical fallacy, despite our pointing it out over and over again. Makes the whole discussion the equivalent of

Maybe walk away instead of beating your head against a wall?

As to the OP, clearly there has only been one famous military general or scientist in the whole of human history and never have we been able to appreciate the accomplishments of multiple people.

 

[wayoung]

Maybe walk away instead of beating your head against a wall?

Why? I've nothing better to do. I'm already discussing the viability of impregnating a toaster in another forum.

 

[fireproof78]

Why? I've nothing better to do. I'm already discussing the viability of impregnating a toaster in another forum.

Ooohh...appliance porn. Whelp, my day is booked.

 

[Spider]

Why? I've nothing better to do. I'm already discussing the viability of impregnating a toaster in another forum.

Would a baby toaster be big enough for an english muffin?

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

Did...did this thread turn into a modern day Kirk vs. Picard argument..?

I thought we were past this, lol.

J/k, I understand the argument. It's still a bit funny though.

 

[wayoung]

Ooohh...appliance porn. Whelp, my day is booked.

Its in general trek if you're interested.

For some of us, its small appliance porn

 

[wayoung]

Did...did this thread turn into a modern day Kirk vs. Picard argument..?

I thought we were past this, lol.

J/k, I understand the argument. It's still a bit funny though.

Never.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Almost certainly not. Kirk saved the Earth and Federation in two timelines. He beat Greek god Apollo.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

The bottom line is that even though Kirk has been mentioned (and seen) in TNG/DS9/VOY, the characters in those shows who mention him don't go "gaga" over him to the point that there would be no room in Starfleet history for any other person (such as Burnham) to have made a meaningful impact.

 

[wayoung]

The bottom line is that even though Kirk has been mentioned (and seen) in TNG/DS9/VOY, the characters in those shows who mention him don't go "gaga" over him to the point that there would be no room in Starfleet history for any other person (such as Burnham) to have made a meaningful impact.

? Nobody in history ever is so famous or "great" that everyone goes gaga over them to the point that everyone else in history is forgotten.

Going back to my earlier example, just because Caesar existed doesn't mean everyone forgot about Augustus.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

? Nobody in history ever is so famous or "great" that everyone goes gaga over them to the point that everyone else in history is forgotten.

Going back to my earlier example, just because Caesar existed doesn't mean everyone forgot about Augustus.

Right. So Burnham could do a lot of meaningful stuff and still not overshadow Kirk's accomplishments.

Heck, Burnham could do extremely impactful and meaningful things relative to Federation events, but history may not capture her personal involvement in those events....

...That is to say, maybe she was a major player in "re-engaging with the Klingon Empire" (or whatever DSC's story arc is about), but history only tells of that re-engagement in general terms, without the specific personalities involved in that re-engagement being part of commonly-held knowledge/Strarfleet lore.

 

[wayoung]

Right. So Burnham could do a lot of meaningful stuff and still not overshadow Kirk's accomplishments.

Heck, Burnham could do extremely impactful and meaningful things relative to Federation events, but history may not capture her personal involvement in those events....

...That is to say, maybe she was a major player in "re-engaging with the Klingon Empire" (or whatever DSC's story arc is about), but history only tells of that re-engagement in general terms, without the specific personalities involved in that re-engagement being part of commonly-held knowledge/Strarfleet lore.

K. I wasn't quite sure where you were going with that other post.

 

[Noname Given]

You are using one reference in the third episode of TNG ever made before the show had any idea what it was doing and ignoring every other reference in all the other series, which do present Kirk as a legendary figure. From all the references to his heroics in TOS, to how the Klingons know him as a great warrior in the films, to Sisko risking the space time continuum to shake his hand and the temporal cop saying he would have done the same thing given the chance, to icheb on voyager writing a 35 page essay on him as part of Starfleet history class.

Yeah - here's how Capt. Janeway refered to Kirk, Spock and Co. in ST:VOY: "Flashback":
http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/225.htm

JANEWAY: Space must have seemed a whole lot bigger back then. It's not surprising they had to bend the rules a little. They were a little slower to invoke the Prime Directive, and a little quicker to pull their phasers. Of course, the whole bunch of them would be booted out of Starfleet today. But I have to admit, I would have loved to ride shotgun at least once with a group of officers like that.

^^^
I have never liked ST:VOY. It's the only Star Trek franchise series I gave up watching (after the episode "The 37's")This is why I'm happy the original showrunner for ST: D left/dropped out as I know he worked a lot on ST:VOY. And after hearing about one of the ST: D writers (who has written ST:VOY novels) gave a stage direction/correction that because of 'Gene's Vision' - no one on Star Trek would say "My God" to the actor playing Captain Lorca - who did a little ad lib exclamation, (which is bogus, see below):

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(And there were times Dr. McCoy said it as well.)
Now kinda makes me wish they cleaned house with regard to former Star Trek: Voyager writers <-- Or at least get them to WATCH TOS. YMMV.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

K. I wasn't quite sure where you were going with that other post.

Frankly, I floated a few different ideas.

1) Burnham could be well-known in history for her accomplishments and still not overshadow Kirk.

2) The lack of any mention of Burnham in past Trek TV shows (especially TNG. DS9, and VOY) does not mean that she was not well-known historical figure.

It's not as if those shows made a large number of references to Kirk, either. There is plenty of room for Burnham to do things that would be well-known to a 24th century Starfleet officer, but not necessarily something that would be mentioned by those people as part of the TV episodes we saw.

3) Burnham may have had an impact role in many important events in the history of the Federation and Starfleet, but her personal involvement may not be part of the general historical knowledge surrounding those events. Some historians in the TNG/DS9/VOY era may know of her specific role in those events, but the common person -- or even the common Starfleet member -- may not.

 

[Tuskin38]

And after hearing about one of the ST: D writers (who has written ST:VOY novels) gave a stage direction/correction that because of 'Gene's Vision' - no one on Star Trek would say "My God" to the actor playing Captain Lorca

And EW took that out of context.

There is probably a reason why Lorca isn't going to say that.

 

[UssGlenn]

DS9 has one episode actually featuring Kirk in flesh. This is the only time anybody in Starfleet mentions Kirk in DS9

not quite, from "Crossover":
KIRA: Have you ever hear of a Starfleet Captain named James Kirk?
BASHIR: Kirk? Of course. The transporter accident. Read about it at the Academy. So that's where we are.

Kira doesn't know Kirk, the Intendant fills her in, but Bashir read about at least one Kirk mission at the Academy.

 

[Vger23]

Yeah - here's how Capt. Janeway refered to Kirk, Spock and Co. in ST:VOY: "Flashback":
http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/225.htm

^^^
I have never liked ST:VOY. It's the only Star Trek franchise series I gave up watching (after the episode "The 37's")This is why I'm happy the original showrunner for ST: D left/dropped out as I know he worked a lot on ST:VOY. And after hearing about one of the ST: D writers (who has written ST:VOY novels) gave a stage direction/correction that because of 'Gene's Vision' - no one on Star Trek would say "My God" to the actor playing Captain Lorca - who did a little ad lib exclamation, (which is bogus, see below):

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(And there were times Dr. McCoy said it as well.)
Now kinda makes me wish they cleaned house with regard to former Star Trek: Voyager writers <-- Or at least get them to WATCH TOS. YMMV.

It's funny, but "The 37's" is where I dropped out as a regular viewer too. The quote you attributed to Janeway in "Flashback" made me sick then, and just as sick now. It was the very embodiment of where the franchise had gone wrong.

 

[KirkusOveractus]

It's funny, but "The 37's" is where I dropped out as a regular viewer too. The quote you attributed to Janeway in "Flashback" made me sick then, and just as sick now. It was the very embodiment of where the franchise had gone wrong.

While I kept watching VOY a little past "The 37s", I wasn't watching as regularly. In fact, I vividly remember turning one episode off when Tuvok says that a Romulan came ahead in time. It was just all getting into the overused plot devices and it got tiresome.

But to Janeway's line, although she was saying it with a bit of "admiration", I later felt that it really didn't work. It kind of condemned TOS to being wrong and everything since was trying to paper over it.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

By the time of TOS Kirk is already a highly decorated officer and recognized as the greatest military commander in Starfleet. Makes one wonder what the hell he was doing before the 5 year mission.



... I don't think we were watching the same show. TOS went out of its way to show special Kirk was, as the clip posted earlier and my above reference to whom gods destroy make clear. How many times out of 79 episodes did we see him pulling out his medals/discussing his accomplished past?

Yes, TOS went out of the way to show us Kirk as a capable and accomplished leader. He was special in that he was a starship commander, one of 12. He was special in that he was the lead of the show we were watching.

However, being accomplished and highly-decorated doesn't equate to being "legendary." There are a lot of highly-decorated officers in today's Navy that aren't legendary.

Kirk's legend got built up in the movies, especially with Roddenberry's TMP novelization, which implied that Kirk's five-year mission was adapted into a popular form of entertainment.

But in the early days of TOS, especially the first season, Kirk was just another starship captain of the line.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

But in the early days of TOS, especially the first season, Kirk was just another starship captain of the line.

Hell, the other starship captains "dissed" Kirk in a major way in The Ultimate Computer with thewhole "Captain Dunsel" thing. They obviously didn't see Kirk as some sort of living legend. At least not at that point in the series. Maybe by the time period in which the films take place, Kirk's legend had grown a bit.