Will Before Dishonors Ending Affect Voyager books? Spoilers!

[Christopher]

I should clarify that "&" is not a meaningful search operator in Google. If you enter two or more words, Google takes the "AND" concept as a given, i.e. it assumes you're looking for sites that contain all the specified words. (If you want it to search for sites that contain either term but not both, you would enter "this OR that." "This that" is implicitly "This AND that.") So I would assume that by entering the "&" symbol, you're just telling it to search for pages that actually contain that typographic symbol in their text in addition to the other words. Except that would presumably give fewer results, but in fact it gives 3,000 more than you get without it. So maybe it does have some other effect, but I'm not sure what. It's certainly not a necessary search operator.

Now that we've somewhat resolved your Janeway result, I'm still wondering how you got such a bizarrely low result for Picard.

 

[Therin of Andor]

since this is a discussion board I am curious why Pocket isn't interested in tapping into the Janeway fanbase. It's actually an idle curiousity - the results of this discussion won't affect me much.

Well, now I'm wondering if you realize how Janeway-centric many previous VOY novels have been? VOY's first hardcover was "Mosaic", written by VOY's own Jeri Taylor - a huge book about Janeway's backstory, some elements of which made it into ST canon. Did the Janeway fans ignore that novel, too, so they could read more free Janeway fanfic?

Who was on the cover of "Homecoming", the first VOY Relaunch novel? Janeway!

Similarly, the TNG post-"Nemesis" pro fiction has tapped into that tiny cameo that Kate Mulgrew made in the movie and added her Admiral Janeway character, almost as a regular character. I would say that that was a great attempt to "tap" into the character's existing fanbase.

However, simply on viewer numbers, we know there were far less people who watched Janeway and Archer onscreen that watched Kirk, Picard and Sisko.

I'd also add that, even in the 70s and 80s, there seemed to be little crossover between fanfic readers and pro novel tie-ins. I read and wrote a few fanzines in my day, but I made a point of buying and reading all the pro novels. The hit-rate for good stories is so much better with pro fiction.

While the fanfic people I knew often had a curiosity re what was happening in the pro novels, they refused to pay for, or read, them. (They were too busy saving up much more money to import new fanzines.) Unless it was a novel by a fanfic author turned pro, of course, such as Della Van Hise, MS Murdock, Melinda Snodgrass, Jean Lorrah or Marshak & Culbreath.

These days, much fanfic is cost free to the consumer, due to the Internet. No printing or mailing costs!

 

[kimc]

Now that we've somewhat resolved your Janeway result, I'm still wondering how you got such a bizarrely low result for Picard.

Sorry, I'm googled out for the day!

VOY's first hardcover was "Mosaic", written by VOY's own Jeri Taylor - a huge ook about Janeway's backstory, some elements of which made it into ST canon. Did the Janeway fans ignore that novel, too, so they could read more free Janeway fanfic?

Are you making an assumption on ALL Janeway fans based on my posts?

I can't answer for all Janeway fans. I know for myself money is not the issue - I've been known to spend hundreds of dollars on a pair of designer shoes. If you're really interested you can always go over to the Voyager forum and ask.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Are you making an assumption on ALL Janeway fans based on my posts?

Not at all. I'm assuming nothing of the kind However...

we've had visits from several Janeway fanfic fans in this and similar threads, and their supposition has been that Janeway fanfic readers will ignore any VOY novels in which Janeway remains dead.

 

[kimc]

Are you making an assumption on ALL Janeway fans based on my posts?

Not at all. I'm assuming nothing of the kind However...

we've had visits from several Janeway fanfic fans in this and similar threads, and their supposition has been that Janeway fanfic readers will ignore any VOY novels in which Janeway remains dead.

Okay, from your previous post I thought you were talking about the earlier novels. As for future novels I'm not sure if "ignore" is the right word since after all we're posting about them and discussing them. Flip through while standing in the bookstore and place back onto shelf with a sigh of disappointment (or in the case of "Before Dishonor" with an angry grimace) is how I would describe my routine.

I'll probably still continue to "bookstore flip" but a book is going to have to be really good to get me to buy it. I'm an avid reader with a tall stack of purchased, unread books in my living room I need to get through. I'm not going to buy a book simply because it has "Star Trek" on the cover.

As for Janeway being one of my favorite characters I'm thankful fanfiction has gone where Pocket has not. I discover new authors/stories nearly every day. Some are really good, others not so good but it's a fun little daily treasure hunt.

 

[KRAD]

Similarly, the TNG post-"Nemesis" pro fiction has tapped into that tiny cameo that Kate Mulgrew made in the movie and added her Admiral Janeway character, almost as a regular character. I would say that that was a great attempt to "tap" into the character's existing fanbase.

Not just the post-Nemesis fiction. Admiral Janeway appeared in each of the final five of the nine A Time to... books, including (among other things) being the one to offer Riker the command of Titan at the end of A Time to Hate and giving the Enterprise their assignment in the search for Kahless in A Time for War, a Time for Peace.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Not just the post-Nemesis fiction. Admiral Janeway appeared in each of the final five of the nine A Time to... books.

Thanks. I was putting all this into my earlier post, then realised I was running late for work and removed my "post-Insurrection" information in case I had the number of appearances incorrect.

Using Janeway in the admiral's role in "A Time.." - based on her canonical "Nemesis" promotion - was, I think, significant as to Pocket's desire to make good use of the character, since the authors could easily have created an all-new feisty admiral, or several, or given the lines to Nechayev.

 

[Steve Roby]

Most I've flipped through and tossed back onto the bookstore shelf in disappointment.

Oh, well, that's certainly a reliable basis for an informed opinion.

(Am I being a wee bit sarcastic? Guess and check your answer!)

Spoiler: possible sarcasm

Yes, I am being a wee bit sarcastic.

 

[Leaf]

Most I've flipped through and tossed back onto the bookstore shelf in disappointment.

Oh, well, that's certainly a reliable basis for an informed opinion.

(Am I being a wee bit sarcastic? Guess and check your answer!)

Spoiler: possible sarcasm

Yes, I am being a wee bit sarcastic.

Since when does anyone need an informed opinion to argue on the Internet?

 

[captcalhoun]

Most I've flipped through and tossed back onto the bookstore shelf in disappointment.

Oh, well, that's certainly a reliable basis for an informed opinion.

(Am I being a wee bit sarcastic? Guess and check your answer!)

Spoiler: possible sarcasm

Yes, I am being a wee bit sarcastic.

that's not a WEE bit, that's a lot.

it's also true.

 

[ClayinCA]

I'm not going to buy a book simply because it has "Star Trek" on the cover.

Honestly, that's the first thing you've said that I agree with. I once got in a big fight with an ex-girlfriend of mine when, after raging on and on about how a particular Trek writer's books were awful, she then bought a new Star Trek novel by the same author. I asked her why on Earth she would do that when she hated his earlier books so much, and she looked blankly at me and said, "Becaue I buy all the Star Trek books." I told her that was ridiculous, because if everyone thought like she did, and bought anything with the words Star Trek on the cover, then there'd be no incentive for Pocket to put out good books, because any old dosh would sell.

Now, this was almost twenty years ago, and I would contend that there was a period of time where content was less important to the books; nowadays that's definitely not the case, and it's clear that Marco and Margaret and everyone else are trying their level best to do the best stories possible, period. Obviously, every book isn't going to be to everyone's taste, and I myself am less interested in some books than in others (for example, the Klingon books don't particularly appeal to me--sorry, KRAD--though I'm sure I'll read at least a couple of them eventually). But that's the way it should be, I think, and if anyone is buying every book that comes out, regardless of whether you like 'em or not, then it seems to me that someone's wasting their time and money.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'll probably still continue to "bookstore flip" but a book is going to have to be really good to get me to buy it. I'm an avid reader with a tall stack of purchased, unread books in my living room I need to get through. I'm not going to buy a book simply because it has "Star Trek" on the cover.

Well, see there's the difference. When a new ST novel comes out, I say "Wow, I wonder what happens in that one?", where you don't seem to have that burning curiosity. Even though the book may feature characters you care about, reading their licensed adventures has less call for you than either other genres written by pro writers, or amateur ST fanfic fanzines (written by friends, fans and, presumably, pro writers in training)?

I like the fact that Pocket and CBS Consumer Products has already vetted the writing for me. While each ST novel will appeal to different readers, there's a level of professionalism I'm willing to trust, where fanfic may or may not have that "quality control". As a former fanzine editor, I shudder at the memory of some of the fanfic I was sent, and how courteous I had to be when rejecting some of it. Not to mention that many fanfic writers absolutely hate editorial uggestions. (At least we know that pro ST story authors know, in advance, that there will be an editorial process and that it's intended to improve the story and keep it being a ST story.)

I'm curious if you also do your "bookshop flip" (before reading) through all ST fanfic as well. (In the old days of fanfic, this was tricky since many fanzines were sold by mail.) I'm only guilty of flipping before reading ST when I'm dying of curiosity about something, and sometimes I've ended up spoiler-ing myself. My fault. But I'm not judging for quality; I do plan on reading every ST novel published. It's a commitment I made for myself in 1980. I'm a ST fan and I want/need to know everything that happens in the licensed tie-ins.

I don't think I've ever flipped non ST books for quality for my personal reading either. (I do recall doing it for novels we had to study as a shool text, though.) Certainly picture books and juvelie fiction for my school library, but for myself, for recreational reading, I'm more likely to rely on author reputation, blurb, friend's recommendation of book review.

Fanfic? I did used to read and write some, but I was very selective.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Now, this was almost twenty years ago, and I would contend that there was a period of time where content was less important to the books.

I would strongly disagree. I cannot imagine a ST editor saying, "Yeah, let's just slap this one out and the suckers'll buy it even though it's crap." As we've seen in other threads, everyone's least favourite ST novel is someone else's favourite. In the early 80s, there were people hungry for the next Marshak/Culbreath.

Sometimes a writer's pitch will sound much better than what arrives before deadline, but the ST novels have always been vetted to make them the best book possible in the time permitted, and by whatever rules were in place.

 

[JD]

Flip through while standing in the bookstore and place back onto shelf with a sigh of disappointment (or in the case of "Before Dishonor" with an angry grimace) is how I would describe my routine.

I'll probably still continue to "bookstore flip" but a book is going to have to be really good to get me to buy it. I'm an avid reader with a tall stack of purchased, unread books in my living room I need to get through. I'm not going to buy a book simply because it has "Star Trek" on the cover.

Just out of curiosity, how much of the actualy book do you read when you do this? Is it just a page here and there, or do you actually sit a read a chunk of the book? Because I'm sorry, but the former really doesn't work as a way to actually judge the quality of the book. You can tell if you don't like the way it's written, but IMO there's really no way you can actually say whether or not the whole book is good or not.
As for the whole buying a book just because it has Star Trek on the cover, I'll admit I'm somewhat guilty of that. But this is only because I've been pretty happy with most of the Trek books I've read. I'll readily admit that if I started to be unhappy with the Trek books ,which I doubt will ever happen as long as the current authors and editors are still involved. I know I sound like I'm just kissing ass, but I really do mean everything I say about the books. IMO the books we have been getting lately have been easily equal to the best of televised Trek, if not better.

 

[KRAD]

(for example, the Klingon books don't particularly appeal to me--sorry, KRAD--though I'm sure I'll read at least a couple of them eventually).

I hope you do, as one of the most common comments I've gotten on my Klingon-based fiction over the years is, "You know, I usually hate Klingons, but I liked these books!"

And if you still don't like the books, well, that's fine, too.

 

[Ferd Burfel]

Well I love the Klingons and I love the books more. Great, great storytelling. Like a warped image of Gene's Star Trek.

 

[JAG]

(for example, the Klingon books don't particularly appeal to me--sorry, KRAD--though I'm sure I'll read at least a couple of them eventually).

I hope you do, as one of the most common comments I've gotten on my Klingon-based fiction over the years is, "You know, I usually hate Klingons, but I liked these books!"

And if you still don't like the books, well, that's fine, too.

I agree with this. I never imagined I would be willing to read an entire book about Klingons.

Totally true, I never imagined I would read an entire book about Klingons. Krad gives them a background we had not seen before. He made them interesting.

 

[Steve Roby]

(for example, the Klingon books don't particularly appeal to me--sorry, KRAD--though I'm sure I'll read at least a couple of them eventually).

I hope you do, as one of the most common comments I've gotten on my Klingon-based fiction over the years is, "You know, I usually hate Klingons, but I liked these books!"

I don't think I'd say that I hate Klingons, though it may be fair to say I hate the lazy stereotypical way Klingons are sometimes written. But the Gorkon bunch are individuals, each with his or her own distinct personality. And I really liked the way Klingon Empire: A Burning House broadened the canvas to let us see more of nonmilitary life on Klingon worlds, while still featuring the Gorkon characters I'd come to really like over the course of the previous books.

After all, Star Trek gives us just a narrow slice of each of its cultures. You can't have a functional society where everyone is a warrior and no one does all the other jobs. For that matter, you can't have a functional military where everyone's a gung ho frontline fighter who can't wait to die gloriously. Star Trek on TV tends to show us those kinds of characters because they're the ones people in Starfleet are more likely to meet. We don't see the opera singers and composers, the farmers, and all the other people who make Klingon society a society instead of an army. But in Burning House we do. We see how Klingons on colony worlds actually get along with the subjugated locals. We see how people live in the slums of the poorer cities. And, yeah, we see what goes into the making of one of those epic operas.

Nothing's been announced about future Klingon Empire novels, and I don't know how well A Burning House sold, but if anyone's resisted buying it because they don't like the usual Klingon cliches, they're missing the point of this series completely. This is good stuff, fun and thoughtful.

 

[kimc]

Even though the book may feature characters you care about, reading their licensed adventures has less call for you than either other genres written by pro writers, or amateur ST fanfic fanzines (written by friends, fans and, presumably, pro writers in training)?

You're making some assumptions here. Yes, I'm curious which is why I bother to take a look. Nothing would make me happier than to have interesting adventures written about my favorite characters from the television series. Also, I don't know any fanfictio writers personally nor am I one myself. I'm just and avid reader.

I'm curious if you also do your "bookshop flip" (before reading) through all ST fanfic as well.

Yes, and there are some definite stinkers out there as well as some very good work.

But I'm not judging for quality; I do plan on reading every ST novel published.

For me I have too many wide and varied interests including Star Trek. There's a whole wide world of thoughts and ideas out there and I'm interested in sampling/learning as much of it as I can. This means I need to be selective about where/how I spend my precious reading time.

 

[kimc]

Just out of curiosity, how much of the actualy book do you read when you do this? Is it just a page here and there, or do you actually sit a read a chunk of the book? Because I'm sorry, but the former really doesn't work as a way to actually judge the quality of the book. You can tell if you don't like the way it's written, but IMO there's really no way you can actually say whether or not the whole book is good or not.

It depends on the book. The quality of the writing is definitely a factor but in the case of "Before Dishonor" I read chunks of it because I wanted to know what happened. What I read did not inspire me to buy the book.