Will Before Dishonors Ending Affect Voyager books? Spoilers!

[kimc]

Personally I'm amazed that no one is interested in taking on the creative challenges of writing for the only female captain in Trek.

to suggest that the choice to not immediately resurrect Janeway is an indication that we see a challenge and are simply unwilling to rise to it is simply unworthy of the writers and editors who are continuing to explore this universe.

You've misunderstood my intent. I'm not only referring to the decision to kill her off but to the way her character was portrayed in the books. Quite frankly if the books were my only exposure to Janeway I'd be cheering her death too!

We may not fulfill everyone's hopes and dreams in our execution, but please don't insult us by imagining that the choices before us when this project was first contemplated were simple and we just opted for the path of least resistance because we weren't interested in a challenge.

It's not your job to fulfill everyone's hopes and dreams - an unrealistic goal to say the least. As you said it's to write compellilng stories and unfortunately nothing I've seen the last several years has compelled me to purchase a book. If that changes in the future then no one would be happier than I to hear a huge "We told you so!"

In a later post you mentioned that you believe the TrekBBS is somehow hostile to Janeway and Voyager fans. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest to you that many of the folks who post on this board regularly are some of those most interested in demanding that written Trek continue to live up to the best traditions of the filmed series. To criticize a show, an episode, a novel or a character is not a hostile act. It is simply an acknowledgment of a personal opinion and as someone dedicated to writing the best Trek I can, I take those opinions seriously.

I agree criticism is not a hostile act. However, there is a difference between posting "I don't agree with Janeway's decision X" vs. "Janeway should be raped." Believe me, after posting on the Voyager board for several years I've seen a bit of it!

As a mod though I would like to invite you and anyone else to post criticism or praise for Janeway or any of the other characters at the Voyager forum. I would love to see some more good discussion there.

Unfortunately, my attempt to get a discussion going here on Pocket's treatment of the Janeway character has been a failure. I appreciate your response and good luck with your future stories.

 

[DimesDan]

I've just done my own search of the five captains in Google, Yahoo and Windows Live Search with the search term: "james t kirk" "star trek" (for an example) and these are the results:

Google:
Kirk = 320,000
Picard = 458,000
Sisko= 73,100
Janeway = 105,000
Archer = 67,400

Yahoo:
Kirk = 1,390,000
Picard = 1,120,000
Sisko = 319,000
Janeway = 776,000
Archer = 250,000

Windows Live:
Kirk = 429,000
Picard = 477,000
Sisko = 87,600
Janeway = 332,000
Archer = 66,000

Although a little surprised by the different hit levels on all three search engines, in none of the above is Janeway in such a massive lead as you claim Arachnia in all three searches she is in third place!

 

[kimc]

Although a little surprised by the different hit levels on all three search engines, in none of the above is Janeway in such a massive lead as you claim Arachnia in all three searches she is in third place!

You entered different search criteria than I did an got different results. Enter the same criteria I did and you will get the same results I did. I'm hiding nothing.

 

[DimesDan]

Although a little surprised by the different hit levels on all three search engines, in none of the above is Janeway in such a massive lead as you claim Arachnia in all three searches she is in third place!

You entered different search criteria than I did an got different results. Enter the same criteria I did and you will get the same results I did. I'm hiding nothing.

To be frankly honest, I do not believe that having an > symbol instead of " symbols would make much difference, plus last time I looked, it is STAR TREK and not TREK, so yes you may not be hiding anything, but still you could have manipulated your search criteria knowing full well it would bring up the result you wanted!

But just for some fits and giggles I'll enter your search criteria and if it's wrong, sorry shouldn't be the hardest words to say should it? (and I'll do the same as well)

 

[Christopher]

You entered different search criteria than I did an got different results. Enter the same criteria I did and you will get the same results I did.

I tried entering the same criteria you gave us, in both permutations you offered, and I got completely different results than you did. You need to back up this assertion with hard evidence, because it doesn't fit what any of the rest of us are finding. Give us links to the actual result pages you claim to be getting these numbers from. Let us see for ourselves. Perhaps you're using some different settings that you haven't told us about (for instance, is your Safe Search on or off?).

Besides, one search doesn't prove anything, because there are any number of ways its results could be skewed (as shown by the large number of false positives on archer trek). Between us, Dimesdan and I have conducted multiple different searches using multiple different permutations of search terms and search engines, and in every case, Janeway has been in third or fourth place, with Picard and Kirk having commanding leads (no pun intended). That broader trend is more probative than a single search result.

And your claim that Picard only got 8,100 hits is such a bizarre outlier of a data point that it's highly suspicious on the face of it. Given that every other Picard search has turned out with 6 or 7 figures, a 4-figure result can't possibly be correct, unless you badly misspelled "Jean-Luc Picard." You need to show us your actual process and results if you want to prove your assertions. Providing links to the result pages, as I have done, is the way to do that.

 

[DimesDan]

Cheers Christopher for that, you put my point across far better then I could have done!

Anyway, search number two (and the fact it is number two really has meaning.) I entered the search criteria you cried foul over Arachnia (<james t kirk> + "trek" for example) on the three big search engines, and heres what I got:

Google:
Kirk = 1,240,000
Picard = 499,000
Sisko = 94,600
Janeway = 137,000
Archer = 98,700

Yahoo:
Kirk = 2,600,000
Picard = 1,260,000
Sisko = 385,000
Janeway = 830,000
Archer = 597,000

Windows Live:
Kirk: 1,600,000
Picard: 488,000
Sisko: 90,900
Janeway: 304,000
Archer: 191,000

Okay, I don't have links (I'm not sure how to work them on here) but apart from slight changes in the amount of hits in search two over search one, Captain/Admiral Kathryn Janeway is in third place according to all three search engines!

I could do a third search with a new set of critea, but that would just add even more evidence against your faulty assumptions and possibly add insult to injury!

 

[Steve Roby]

Quite frankly if the books were my only exposure to Janeway I'd be cheering her death too!

unfortunately nothing I've seen the last several years has compelled me to purchase a book.

Okay, maybe you get Voyager books from the library instead of buying them, but I'm curious... how many of the 40 or so Voyager novels have you read? Which ones?

 

[William Leisner]

[

In a later post you mentioned that you believe the TrekBBS is somehow hostile to Janeway and Voyager fans. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest to you that many of the folks who post on this board regularly are some of those most interested in demanding that written Trek continue to live up to the best traditions of the filmed series. To criticize a show, an episode, a novel or a character is not a hostile act. It is simply an acknowledgment of a personal opinion and as someone dedicated to writing the best Trek I can, I take those opinions seriously.

I agree criticism is not a hostile act. However, there is a difference between posting "I don't agree with Janeway's decision X" vs. "Janeway should be raped." Believe me, after posting on the Voyager board for several years I've seen a bit of it!

Okay, this is beyond the pale. While I'd believe there have been one or two troglodytes over the past however many years to suggest raping Janeway (though given your exaggerated Google figures, maybe I shouldn't), I am appalled that you -- a moderator on this site -- would use that broad brush to demonize the many who in your opinion aren't sufficiently worshipful of the Bunned One.

I don't like Janeway. I never have. I think she was, over the course of seven years, the worst conceived and written lead character in the history of Trek, and perhaps of any comparably long-running television program of the last twenty years. The fact that any novelists have managed to make her at all interesting is a credit to their talent.

However, this does not mean I think she should be subjected to a violent sexual assault, and I'm offended by the casual way you throw this out there as a commonly-held opinion.

 

[kimc]

Besides, one search doesn't prove anything, because there are any number of ways its results could be skewed

I'll agree to that - especially since I've just figured out what happend.

If you care to duplicate:

1) Misspell the first name like this: kathyrn janeway & trek (results = 59,500)
2) Hit link "Do you mean kathryn janeway & trek? (results = 136,000)
3) Put quotes around trek (results = 142,000)
4) Take quotes off trek (results = 514,000)

I'd post a print screen but we all know with Photoshop it would be easy enough to alter. Those who care will need to follow the steps above.

My thanks and apologies to those who honestly wanted to set the record straight. A large raspberry to the rest!

 

[kimc]

Quite frankly if the books were my only exposure to Janeway I'd be cheering her death too!

unfortunately nothing I've seen the last several years has compelled me to purchase a book.

Okay, maybe you get Voyager books from the library instead of buying them, but I'm curious... how many of the 40 or so Voyager novels have you read? Which ones?

I've purchased some of them. My favorite is "Mosaic". Most I've flipped through and tossed back onto the bookstore shelf in disappointment. I haven't been to a library in years although with the current economic conditions it may be a good idea to start going again.

The majority of my Pocket book purchases several years ago was for TOS but I fell out of the habit of buying them when there was a long period without any new ones.

 

[LightningStorm]

If you care to duplicate:

1) Misspell the first name like this: kathyrn janeway & trek (results = 59,500)
2) Hit link "Do you mean kathryn janeway & trek? (results = 136,000)
3) Put quotes around trek (results = 142,000)
4) Take quotes off trek (results = 514,000)

1. check. I got 59,700
2. check. I got 137,000
3. fault! I got 136,000
4. fault! (since this is exactly the same as #2) I got 137,000 again.

 

[kimc]

If you care to duplicate:

1) Misspell the first name like this: kathyrn janeway & trek (results = 59,500)
2) Hit link "Do you mean kathryn janeway & trek? (results = 136,000)
3) Put quotes around trek (results = 142,000)
4) Take quotes off trek (results = 514,000)

1. check. I got 59,700
2. check. I got 137,000
3. fault! I got 136,000
4. fault! (since this is exactly the same as #2) I got 137,000 again.

Actually, 1 is not check. I got 59,500.

I wonder if it's a browser issue. I'm running IE 6 here. Later I can try another machine where I run Firefox.

 

[LightningStorm]

Actually, 1 is not check. I got 59,500.

I considered 1 & 2 to be close enough as to be considered accurate enough. With numbers that high and the dynamic nature of the internet and Google's database a difference >1% is insignificant.

Also, I have IE6, FireFox 3, and Google Chrome. all three browsers return the same results give or take about 200.

 

[kimc]

Actually, 1 is not check. I got 59,500.

I considered 1 & 2 to be close enough as to be considered accurate enough. With numbers that high and the dynamic nature of the internet and Google's database a difference >1% is insignificant.

True - the larger gap of 136,000/514,00 is obviously more disconcerting. I just got it to happen again on my machine.

 

[LightningStorm]

How about a link?

This is the link I'm using (which is equivalent to numbers 2 and 4 in your list of steps)

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=kathryn+janeway+&+trek&btnG=Search

notice I even have Safe Search Turned Off.

 

[kimc]

How about a link?

This is the link I'm using (which is equivalent to numbers 2 and 4 in your list of steps)

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=kathryn+janeway+&+trek&btnG=Search

notice I even have Safe Search Turned Off.

This is really strange. I took your link, added quotes to trek and got 511,000. Here's the link:

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=kathryn+janeway+&+"trek"&btnG=Search

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

How about a link?

This is the link I'm using (which is equivalent to numbers 2 and 4 in your list of steps)

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=kathryn+janeway+&+trek&btnG=Search

notice I even have Safe Search Turned Off.

This is really strange. I took your link, added quotes to trek and got 511,000. Here's the link:

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=kathryn+janeway+&+"trek"&btnG=Search

I clicked on your link and got 136,000 results. I didn't add or subtract a thing.

 

[kimc]

How about a link?

This is the link I'm using (which is equivalent to numbers 2 and 4 in your list of steps)

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=kathryn+janeway+%26+trek&btnG=Search

notice I even have Safe Search Turned Off.

This is really strange. I took your link, added quotes to trek and got 511,000. Here's the link:

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=kathryn+janeway+&+"trek"&btnG=Search

I clicked on your link and got 136,000 results. I didn't add or subtract a thing.

What do you get if you click on LightningStorm's link then put quotes around trek?

Edited to add: I've just cleared my cache and now the link I submitted above gives me 142,000 results. I'll see if I can duplicate 511,000 again. If not then perhaps it's a cache issue?

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

This is really strange. I took your link, added quotes to trek and got 511,000. Here's the link:

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=kathryn+janeway+&+"trek"&btnG=Search

I clicked on your link and got 136,000 results. I didn't add or subtract a thing.

What do you get if you click on LightningStorm's link then put quotes around trek?

A difference of about 1000 hits.

With quotes - 136,000
Without quotes - 137,000

 

[kimc]

I clicked on your link and got 136,000 results. I didn't add or subtract a thing.

What do you get if you click on LightningStorm's link then put quotes around trek?

A difference of about 1000 hits.

With quotes - 136,000
Without quotes - 137,000

Well since I cleared the cache I can't duplicate it at all so it must be a cache thing. Thanks guys for trying to help me figure it out.