Will Before Dishonors Ending Affect Voyager books? Spoilers!

[Christopher]

I wasn't remarking on their reasons for being invited, merely pointing out that their characters' deaths in Star Trek did not preclude their participation. By the same token, I'm sure Joanna Cassidy got more interest due to Blade Runner than Enterprise and Malcolm McDowell got more interest due to A Clockwork Orange and Heroes and all his other famous roles than just Generations.

 

[captcalhoun]

i loved him as Col. Cochrane in the original Blue Thunder movie...

*makes click noise* catch ya later...

 

[tenmei]

Patricia Tallman was also Ensign Blake in DS9 ("The Search").

Christopher, you've been pretty vocal about what was on the 'shopping list' of things you were given that needed to be included in GTTS, but was the death of Janeway mandated by TPTB and not PAD - and if so, how much of the rest of the novel was on the shopping list?

Dependant on the answer, it seems he could be coming in for a lot of flack that he doesn't necessarily deserve.

 

[Defcon]

It has been stated repeatedly that Janeway's death was Margaret Clark's decision.

 

[Christopher]

Christopher, you've been pretty vocal about what was on the 'shopping list' of things you were given that needed to be included in GTTS, but was the death of Janeway mandated by TPTB and not PAD - and if so, how much of the rest of the novel was on the shopping list?

As Defcon says, that was decided by Margaret, not the chimerical "TPTB." I want to emphatically reject the implication in your question that some committee at CBS/Paramount or something is dictating the content of Trek novels. It's all the editors and authors, mostly the authors.

The "shopping list" I've described for GTTS was very brief and general, and I've been "vocal" about it in order to make it clear just how minimal it was. I was asked to resolve the thread of the Einstein, but wasn't told how or required to make it a central element of the story. I was asked to set up the state of Picard and Beverly's relationship as Dave defined it in the Destiny outline, but it was left up to me whether that relationship would include marriage or not. I was asked to kill off one of two characters but given my choice as to which one. And I didn't have to include as much of a Borg focus as I did.

So if you're implying that Margaret Clark plotted BD and just gave it to PAD as a subcontractor to fill in the details, that's a gross misunderstanding of the jobs of editors and writers. There are no "shopping lists." The editors and authors are collaborators in the development of an ongoing novel continuity. Coming up with individual novel plots is the writers' job, but the editors are the "showrunners" who manage the development of the overall continuity. The things an editor asks for in a novel, therefore, are mainly just the points that are relevant to that larger continuity -- where certain characters or events need to end up by the conclusion of the novel, for instance. It's up to the authors to figure out how they get there and what else happens along the way. And a lot of what the authors come up with on their own can influence where the editors decide to take the metanarrative (as with Vanguard, where the authors' choices in the first two books led to a major departure from the plan outlined in the original series bible).

 

[tenmei]

Oh, no, I'm not to say Margaret Clark is to blame for what people percieve as the full failure of BD. Just that if she was responsible for saying to PAD that she wanted Janeway to die - then she needs to share a large portion of the responsibility for that occurance.

And when I said TPTB, I didn't mean some nebulous committee of Paramount/CBS, I did in fact mean what you said had above about it being the editors who gave you the list of points that needed to be included or factored in.

 

[Christopher]

And when I said TPTB, I didn't mean some nebulous committee of Paramount/CBS, I did in fact mean what you said had above about it being the editors who gave you the list of points that needed to be included or factored in.

But that's not quite what I said. The way you're phrasing it still makes it sound kind of dictatorial or formulaic. "TPTB" -- "the powers that be" -- implies some high-up, entrenched authority dictating what goes on below. It's more collaborative than that. And it's not "the editors," just one editor on each book. (Marco and Margaret are co-editing Destiny, but that's an exceptional case.)

 

[HappyDayRiot]

Who was the character you decided to not kill, Christopher?

 

[William Leisner]

Who was the character you decided to not kill, Christopher?

Presumably all the ones who were left alive.

 

[Trent Roman]

I would guess, not having yet read GttS, that the characters on the chopping block were T'Lana and Leybenzon. Thinking about it, I'm honestly not sure which one I'd rather see dead. Leybenzon, I guess, since he was the most transgressive with his torture-happiness, whereas T'Lana was 'only' an egomaniacal fool.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[HappyDayRiot]

For some reason I didn't even consider those two. The only person I thought of was the one who DID die and then made me wonder who the other one on the chopping block could have been. You're probably right.

 

[Christopher]

Who was the character you decided to not kill, Christopher?

You can find that answer in one or two of the GTTS threads on this forum, but I prefer not to give it away in a BD thread, for the benefit of anyone who may not have read GTTS yet.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Just that if she was responsible for saying to PAD that she wanted Janeway to die - then she needs to share a large portion of the responsibility for that occurance.

And - at about the same time that Margaret and Peter were making that decision - debate was raging here at TrekBBS, over several months, about how cowardly the tie-in fiction editors and writers were because "we all know" that no regular ST character is ever killed off permanently in the novels and comics, and that "the dreaded reset button" reigned supreme.

 

[ATimson]

And - at about the same time that Margaret and Peter were making that decision - debate was raging here at TrekBBS, over several months, about how cowardly the tie-in fiction editors and writers were because "we all know" that no regular ST character is ever killed off permanently in the novels and comics, and that "the dreaded reset button" reigned supreme.

You mean that "dreaded reset button" that Before Dishonor made sure to install, when it could easily have given a pass to it?

 

[Christopher]

You mean that "dreaded reset button" that Before Dishonor made sure to install, when it could easily have given a pass to it?

I'm always struck by arguments that include words like "easily" -- as though it's somehow desirable or preferable for storytellers to make the easy or comfortable choices. I don't understand that premise at all.

 

[Therin of Andor]

You mean that "dreaded reset button" that Before Dishonor made sure to install, when it could easily have given a pass to it?

Easily? What? You mean, not having Suzie Q turn up again at the end?

Putting in any number of reset buttons doesn't mean that it will, or must be, pressed. Some reset buttons are more like red herrings. And, knowing Peter David, he deliberately finds different ways to do things if and when fans second guess him on future storylines.

We already know lots of reset buttons that the ST characters have on hand. A quick slingshot 'round the sun. Call on Q for help. Softland the body near Genesis radiation mixed with protomatter. Go through the Guardian of Forever (- Do or don't pay Harlan $200 as you pass "Go!"). Find Future Guy.

 

[ATimson]

I'm always struck by arguments that include words like "easily" -- as though it's somehow desirable or preferable for storytellers to make the easy or comfortable choices. I don't understand that premise at all.

By "easily" I wasn't referring to the choice, but rather that the Q material could be excised from the book without damaging the rest of the narrative. If anything, I would have though that leaving out the reset button would be the less comfortable choice.

 

[Thrawn]

I didn't see that as a reset button at all. I saw that as doing a service to the fans that would've been pissed if Janeway's death was arbitrary and pointless. I saw that as a promise to fans of the character that she was on to bigger and better things, not that she'd be coming back to life and resuming the admiralty any time soon.

Was it a reset button when Wesley became a Traveler?

 

[Therin of Andor]

If anything, I would have though that leaving out the reset button would be the less comfortable choice.

The "what comes next after being human" theme is a common one for ST, so it fits with the whole premise. Given Janeway's previous association with the Q Continuum, I saw these scenes as more interesting than "We couldn't even put Janeway's mortal remains in a photon tube because there was nothing left of her".

So not the "easy" choice at all, but the one with more drama.

Janeway has gone where no man, no one - no, where no woman - has gone before. Maybe.

 

[Trent Roman]

I saw that as doing a service to the fans that would've been pissed if Janeway's death was arbitrary and pointless.

And yet, not really any less pissed. Probably because it was arbitrary and pointless, and I don't see how silly gesturing towards afterlives is supposed to compensate for that.

Come to think of it, why was Janeway so easily accepting of her situation? Considering what happened last time somebody known to her came to collect her for the afterlife, I'd have expected her to show a little more skepticism.

Was it a reset button when Wesley became a Traveler?

At the end of A Time To Die? Yes, it was. And a pretty cheesy one, too.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman