Why'd we always blame the writer?

[TedShatner10]

And for me, RTD and DW is much like Gene Roddenberry and ST: I'll give credit where it's due for creating/reviving something and being successful but I find both RTD and GR highly over-rated. Some good ideas mixed with a lot of really weak, or outright stupid, ones.

I won't say Russell T. Davies is overrated, considering the more disproportionate bashing he gets anyway and I find Steven Moffat more legitimately overrated in some respects and RTD's ideas seem in general less goofy than Roddenberry's ideas were for early TNG, but that's my opinion.

I'm currently doing a marathon rewatch of Season Three and while it's as entertaining as I remembered it, and arguably Tennant's best season, I found that while the Doctor's often inferring to Rose Tyler relatively soon after her departure in "Doomsday" understandable, in the long run it led to somewhere truly awful in "Journey's End".

 

[The Wormhole]

^^The Doctor always pining for Rose in season 3 was tiresome. I'm not trying to slag Rose, I actually liked the character in seasons 1 and 2. However, let's face facts here for a moment. The Doctor has had many companions, and when they left, though he did miss them, he learned to move on with life. I don't really see what was so great about Rose that she was "the one."

 

[Sci]

I don't really see what was so great about Rose that she was "the one."

I think asking someone to logically explain why they fell in love with any given particular person is a waste of time. People either fall in love or they don't, and to try to determine, objectively, why someone would love this person but not that person is just pointless.

The Doctor fell in love with Rose. That's just all there is to it.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I agree with Sci with this one. That said I've always thought that the Doctor fell in love with aspects of Rose over the period of time they were together. It wasn't exactly like all of a sudden he was gaga over her. Rose showed her strength, determination, compassion and maybe most importantly her potential as a human being to the Doctor. All of those aspects combined...the Doctor fell in love. Maybe he saw aspects in Rose that he saw in his own wife?

 

[Whofan]

I think it was mainly the Tennant persona that was in love with Rose. Also Smith almost doesn't seem to care-although his rejection of Amy's advances may be because he doesn't want to get hurt in that way again. We've seen before that the Doctor's relationship with the companions can change over regeneration-Peri's relationship with the Doctor certainly changed a lot.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I think it was mainly the Tennant persona that was in love with Rose.

I'm not sure. Honestly, I'm not.

Eccleston's Doctor didn't mind flirting with Rose (see "The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances"), but he also tried to further her emotional relationships with others (bringing Adam and Jack onboard, the trip to Cardiff so she could hook up with Mickey in "Boom Town") and he was looking to replace her with Lynda on the GameStation.

Tennant's Doctor had moments where there seemed to be more to their relationship than just flirting ("New Earth," "Tooth and Claw") and moments where he outright rejected her ("School Reunion," "The Girl in the Fireplace"), so there's certainly an ambivalence in the first half of season two about the Doctor's feelings toward Rose. I don't see a definitive shift toward romantic feelings on the Doctor's part in the latter half of the season. I can see that Rose wants romantic feelings from the Doctor, and her behavior (and narration) in "Army of Ghosts"/"Doomsday" is predicated on her desires for a romantic relationship. The scene at Bad Wolf Bay could indicate an interest, now unfulfillable, on the Doctor's part, and I've little doubt that was RTD's intention, but it's also ambiguous enough to support the contention that the Doctor simply wanted Rose to know that he made it safely out of Canary Wharf.

Personally, my read of that scene now is colored by season four, and I blame Rose's attempts to get back to the Doctor for the Daleks breaking reality, rescuing Davros, and stealing the Earth. (Before you say, "Buh?," here's the logic. The walls between the worlds were sealed. Rose and Pete-Torchwood's attempts to break through the walls weakened the fabric of reality enough that the Daleks were able to rescue Davros from the Time Lock, which enabled the Daleks to come up with their reality-busting plan, which culminated in the Daleks stealing Earth and the Doctor locking her irrevocably away in another universe. In other words, if Rose weren't selfish in her desires to be with the Doctor, we wouldn't have had "Journey's End.")

We do know that the Tennant incarnation was incredibly fond of one companion, though, and it was a fondness that shaped his life beyond the norm -- Donna. Consider River's reaction to meeting Donna in "Silence in the Library." Then consider River's completely nonplussed reaction to meeting Amy. At some point in the Doctor's future (and, presumably, not the Tennant incarnation), he and River had a conversation about Donna, and to judge by River's reaction to Donna, it was likely a Very Big Thing. The interstitial scene between "Flesh and Stone" and "Vampires of Venice" on the fifth season box set (the Doctor's reaction to using the word "mate") is indicative of this as well. I'm not suggesting that the Doctor was in love with Donna, but Donna was clearly very important to the Doctor, perhaps, even likely, more than Rose and Martha were.

 

[Sci]

I think it was mainly the Tennant persona that was in love with Rose.

I'm not sure. Honestly, I'm not.

I think there are way too many indicators of deeper feelings on the Doctor's part for Rose, throughout both Series One and Series Two, for it to be beyond a reasonable doubt that he was in love with her.

Now, that does not mean that he was yet willing to be in a relationship with her. And, certainly, he was not incapable of falling for other women, too -- that's a part of life, after all: Having the ability to feel for multiple people. Goodness knows Amy Pond seems to have had deeper feelings for the Doctor than she would ever openly admit ("Amy's Choice") even as she was deeply in love with Rory.

But when you have even a Dalek of all things realizing that the Doctor was in love with Rose, I think it's safe to say it was probably true.

he was looking to replace her with Lynda on the GameStation.

He was certainly looking to bring Lynda aboard, but there's no evidence he was looking to "replace" Rose.

The scene at Bad Wolf Bay could indicate an interest, now unfulfillable, on the Doctor's part, and I've little doubt that was RTD's intention, but it's also ambiguous enough to support the contention that the Doctor simply wanted Rose to know that he made it safely out of Canary Wharf.

If that were the case, he wouldn't have whittered on about how he'd never get the chance again to say whatever it was he meant to say to her before the connection cut out. He clearly meant to say something much more emotionally involved -- and it's obvious that whatever it was he meant to say, his clone said in "Journey's End." Which means that whatever he meant to say was something that would have prompted her to kiss him.

So I really don't think that it's reasonable to interpret that scene in a merely platonic light on the Doctor's part.

Personally, my read of that scene now is colored by season four, and I blame Rose's attempts to get back to the Doctor for the Daleks breaking reality, rescuing Davros, and stealing the Earth. (Before you say, "Buh?," here's the logic. The walls between the worlds were sealed. Rose and Pete-Torchwood's attempts to break through the walls weakened the fabric of reality enough that the Daleks were able to rescue Davros from the Time Lock, which enabled the Daleks to come up with their reality-busting plan, which culminated in the Daleks stealing Earth and the Doctor locking her irrevocably away in another universe. In other words, if Rose weren't selfish in her desires to be with the Doctor, we wouldn't have had "Journey's End.")

Except that there's no evidence whatsoever that that's the case. In fact, the Doctor makes it pretty clear that Rose's attempts to enter our dimension only worked because the Reality Bomb had begun retroactively weakening the walls between dimensions. You've reversed the explicitly-identified cause and effect.

I'm not suggesting that the Doctor was in love with Donna, but Donna was clearly very important to the Doctor, perhaps, even likely, more than Rose and Martha were.

I think it's completely fair to say that Donna was the Doctor's "best friend" (as he put it in "The End of Time, Part Two") and that, as such, she was incredibly dear to him.

That's the wonderful thing about love -- we all have an infinite capacity for it. There's no need to say that you platonically love someone any less than you romantically love someone else.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I think it was mainly the Tennant persona that was in love with Rose.

I'm not sure. Honestly, I'm not.

I think there are way too many indicators of deeper feelings on the Doctor's part for Rose, throughout both Series One and Series Two, for it to be beyond a reasonable doubt that he was in love with her.

Sci, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on Rose and the Doctor. I don't think the evidence is at all conclusive that the Doctor romantically loved Rose; you think Doctor Who should come to a definitive ending after seven seasons with the Doctor and Rose riding off into the sunset. I don't think we can bridge that gap.

Except that there's no evidence whatsoever that that's the case. In fact, the Doctor makes it pretty clear that Rose's attempts to enter our dimension only worked because the Reality Bomb had begun retroactively weakening the walls between dimensions. You've reversed the explicitly-identified cause and effect.

Your interpretation puts the effect (Rose getting through the walls of reality) before the stated cause (the Daleks mucking about with the reality bomb). I prefer to think that the Doctor was trying to spare Rose from the guilt of her own actions.

 

[DWF]

I don't know if the Doctor loved Rose so much why'd fall so easily for Reinette? I think Rose helped him though a troubled time after the Time War and that's what made her special to him. but she even started to question his own specialness after she met Sarah Jane.

 

[Sci]

I don't know if the Doctor loved Rose so much why'd fall so easily for Reinette?

If Amy loved Rory so much, why'd she fall so easily for the Doctor?

Because people are complicated.

 

[Starkers]

My take on the Doctor and Rose has always been thus--Nine loved her, but it was very much a love that he was never going to go anywhere with. I always felt Eccleston played it like a man who loved her to bits, but knew quite clearly that he was way too old and experienced for her. Ten on the other hand, decided to hell with that and that, even if he never actually went all the way with her, he was going to get a lot closer to that point than his predecesor ever would have.

Sarah Jane in School Reunion doesn't count as dumping Rose for, she's the equivilent of the ex you still have feelings for...Reinette, well Reinette's something else entirely, but again you can see how it happened, she looked back at him when he looked in her mind and from that point on I think they shared a connection than he and Rose hadn't (although sharing the time vortex might count). And lets not forget, he and Rose never declared their love for each other, and as far as we know were never intimate. The potential might have been there but if every man and woman on the planet turned down opportunities presented to them because they were waiting for 'the one' then the human race may have died out years ago!

As for RTD vs Moffat...very different writers. Davies is a showman, PT Barnam, who hits you with so much lights and loud music that he hopes you'll never notice that the mermaid is stictched together from old socks. Moffat on the other hand is an illusionist, with him its all smoke and mirrors, only sometimes the smoke isn't quite thick enough, the mirrors well enough placed, to stop you seeing what's really going on.

If I had to choose I'd go with Moffat every time, I'm a huge fan of most everything he's ever written. I think he's a better writer, and a much more controlled writer as well. That doesn't mean I don't get excited by some of the RTD razzle dazzle now and again however

 

[DWF]

I don't know if the Doctor loved Rose so much why'd fall so easily for Reinette?

If Amy loved Rory so much, why'd she fall so easily for the Doctor?

Because people are complicated.

Easily? She knew the Doctor probably longer than she knew Rory and had been obsessed with him for years.

 

[DWF]

Sarah Jane in School Reunion doesn't count as dumping Rose for, she's the equivilent of the ex you still have feelings for...Reinette, well Reinette's something else entirely, but again you can see how it happened, she looked back at him when he looked in her mind and from that point on I think they shared a connection than he and Rose hadn't (although sharing the time vortex might count).

That wasn't what I meant at all when I mentioned School Reunion, it was then that Rose figured out that the Doctor always leaves his companions in the end and she learned that it might be her fate as well.

 

[Bones2]

I don't know if the Doctor loved Rose so much why'd fall so easily for Reinette?

If Amy loved Rory so much, why'd she fall so easily for the Doctor?

Because people are complicated.

Shit writing on both counts. It's not real, y'know.

 

[Thestral]

I don't see a definitive shift toward romantic feelings on the Doctor's part in the latter half of the season. I can see that Rose wants romantic feelings from the Doctor, and her behavior (and narration) in "Army of Ghosts"/"Doomsday" is predicated on her desires for a romantic relationship. The scene at Bad Wolf Bay could indicate an interest, now unfulfillable, on the Doctor's part, and I've little doubt that was RTD's intention, but it's also ambiguous enough to support the contention that the Doctor simply wanted Rose to know that he made it safely out of Canary Wharf.

See, I do see this shift, and I point to The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit. I think during that story and for the rest of the series, Ten and Rose are definitely an item more than previously (and definitely more than Nine, where I agree with you), and I go with the most obvious/author intended interpretation of the Bad Wolf Bay scene.

But when you have even a Dalek of all things realizing that the Doctor was in love with Rose, I think it's safe to say it was probably true.

You're not using that one line in Dalek as support for this, are you? The Dalek was obviously sadistically manipulating the situation (or trying to), but there's no way the Dalek could have "known" any such thing - it was just fishing for a reaction.

Your interpretation puts the effect (Rose getting through the walls of reality) before the stated cause (the Daleks mucking about with the reality bomb). I prefer to think that the Doctor was trying to spare Rose from the guilt of her own actions.

This is Doctor Who - effect happening before cause shouldn't even cause a batted eyelid. Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey.

Shit writing on both counts. It's not real, y'know.

So what you're saying is...

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qKcJF4fOPs[/yt]

 

[Starkers]

I don't know if the Doctor loved Rose so much why'd fall so easily for Reinette?

If Amy loved Rory so much, why'd she fall so easily for the Doctor?

Because people are complicated.

Easily? She knew the Doctor probably longer than she knew Rory and had been obsessed with him for years.

Yeah if anything Amy is more Reinette than she's Rose...with Rory the king of France possibly

 

[The Wormhole]

^^Joking aside, The Eleventh Hour really is just a re-telling of Girl in the Fireplace.

 

[Starkers]

To an extent yes. Moffat does repeat himself at times (to be honest I guess most writers do)

 

[TedShatner10]

Steven Moffat will do well in the long run, even though his first season, when bad, seemed anti-climatic and sterile, with some writers still thinking they're writing for Tennant and he somehow could not gather together as much resources as Davies did.

As much as some people knock down Russell T. Davies for his cheese and growing reptitiveness, I still think it's a bit crass to completely write off his later seasons when he wrote very good episodes like "Midnight" and "Turn Left" alongside overblown duds like "The Stolen Earth" and "Journey's End", and all in all the RTD era from "Rose" to "The End of Time" was very successful critically as well as commercially, about 70% of it was good to excellent and it will be as fondly remembered twenty years from now like Star Trek: The Next Generation is today.

Russell T. Davies took risks, got more carried away, and stepped on a lot of toes, but he reestablished the show and drew the punters in. Another thing I was worried about Davies was him overdoing the relationship between the Doctor and the Master - I can understand the Doctor having a grudging respect for the Master and the Master finally redeemed himself in "The End of Time", but why should the Doctor weep for a dying Master when not so long ago he ruthlessly purged the Racnoss in fire and water after one warning (though to be fair it was either humanity or the Racnoss) and dished out particularly sadistic punishments to the Family with some relish?

 

[Starkers]

That is an interesting point. If I was the last human, and the second to last human was Hitler, I somehow doubt I'd mourn his passing...