Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoilers

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

I'd really like to know... Man of Steel was just an out and out bad film that not only had objective pacing issues and hamfisted writing, but betrayed the character so badly that I can't even say it was Superman.

That's a misuse of the word "objective."

It really was a great movie as far as I'm concerned, and certainly more tightly written than STID. Cavill's Clark/Superman is now my favorite, with a possible sentimental exception for George Reeves.

Look, it's just a fact that a lot more people around the world are familiar with and intrigued by Superman than by Star Trek.

 

[Kabraxal]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

I'd really like to know... Man of Steel was just an out and out bad film that not only had objective pacing issues and hamfisted writing, but betrayed the character so badly that I can't even say it was Superman.

That's a misuse of the word "objective."

It really was a great movie as far as I'm concerned, and certainly more tightly written than STID. Cavill's Clark/Superman is now my favorite, with a possible sentimental exception for George Reeves.

Look, it's just a fact that a lot more people around the world are familiar with and intrigued by Superman than by Star Trek.

I just can't see how it is "tighter" or in any way better written than ST. I had so many issues all over from Zod and Jor-el, to the tornado scene, the flashbacks being fairly poorly intermixed into the pacing, the fight scene at the end, to the "he's hot" line. So many "huh?" moments with fairly bad dialogue and so many moments where suspension of disbelief is just utterly torn to shreds... it was not a well written movie at all.

Let's not even get into the Lois fiasco. That was the plot contriving ways to fit her in at most points and that was it. So not even close to being anywhere near as well written as Trek.

It is easily the worst iteration of Superman I have seen on TV or screen. Though, it might not have reached the depths of some of the comic iterations yet. It's gotten so bad in the comics that I have stopped reading them.

 

[Belz...]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

I'd really like to know... Man of Steel was just an out and out bad film that not only had objective pacing issues and hamfisted writing, but betrayed the character so badly that I can't even say it was Superman.

To me, Man of Steel was a fine, fun movie with some good storytelling and the best Superman character so far. YMMV, as we say. I mean, in Superman II he flat-out murders Zod for no reason. At least here he had little choice, and he couldn't just stop the battle to save individual people caught in the cross-fire.

Iron Man... eh, big fun popcorn flick.

Yeah. Fun and good, but not one for the history books, unlike the first one.

Star Trek has an intellectual aura about it thanks to the series and then will never truly be as huge as a movie that, might be well written, but is all about the popcorn experience.

Not sure I follow you. Movies are, by their nature, and on average, more action-oriented than novels, comics, series and plays.

Still doesn't refute the simple nature that Star Trek is the better film of the three.

Let's agree on that.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Man of Steel definitely had less 'WTF?' moments plot-wise than Into Darkness.

 

[Belz...]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

I just can't see how it is "tighter" or in any way better written than ST.

I think its script was better structured, and raised fewer questions (such as Marcus' exact plan, or how Khan fits into all this, which we've been discussing here.)

the "he's hot" line.

Really ? That's a problem with the plot ?

so many moments where suspension of disbelief is just utterly torn to shreds...

In a superhero movie ? Get out !

it was not a well written movie at all.

This just serves to show that even technical aspects of the production are up to subjective interpretation. There's no objective way to judge a movie except by its short- and long-term success.

Let's not even get into the Lois fiasco. That was the plot contriving ways to fit her in at most points and that was it.

I can think of Khan and Carol Marcus as STID characters that were not entirely justified and forced into the story at some points.

It is easily the worst iteration of Superman I have seen on TV or screen.

I take it you haven't seen the one with Richard Pryor...

 

[Kabraxal]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

I just can't see how it is "tighter" or in any way better written than ST.

I think its script was better structured, and raised fewer questions (such as Marcus' exact plan, or how Khan fits into all this, which we've been discussing here.)

the "he's hot" line.

Really ? That's a problem with the plot ?



In a superhero movie ? Get out !



This just serves to show that even technical aspects of the production are up to subjective interpretation. There's no objective way to judge a movie except by its short- and long-term success.

Let's not even get into the Lois fiasco. That was the plot contriving ways to fit her in at most points and that was it.

I can think of Khan and Carol Marcus as STID characters that were not entirely justified and forced into the story at some points.

It is easily the worst iteration of Superman I have seen on TV or screen.

I take it you haven't seen the one with Richard Pryor...

I actually like all the previous entries, even Returns. As for the "hot" line that was just icing on the cake so to speak... without the horrid tornado scene, Lois magically being where she needs to be for no reason other than the plot called for it, the whole final fight that completely removed me from the movie, all the way to THAT scene.. it was constant jarring sequences for me.

Also.. in Superman II he actually doesn't kill Zod. They cut the scene in the theatrical release but it was supposed to show that they were basically being confined back into the Phantom Zone.

 

[Belz...]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Also.. in Superman II he actually doesn't kill Zod. They cut the scene in the theatrical release but it was supposed to show that they were basically being confined back into the Phantom Zone.

So he doesn't kill Zod in a cut of the movie that wasn't released in theatres ? Yeah, I'm talking about the theatrical release, sir. Don't tell me he doesn't kill Zod. He crushes his hand and kills him although he is now completely harmless. He falls to his death. Then Lois kills Ursa and all Supes does is smile, as though premeditated murder is funny.

So, please, don't talk about Man of Steel betraying the titular character.

 

[Greg Cox]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Really, the need to come to the Abrams forum to big up TOS in the face of nuTrek's success could be as easily and accurately described as "insecure.". It's a meaningless, vapid claim.

There does seem to be an excessive amount of tilting and windmills.

My favorite complaint about the Abrams films is from one poster (who I shall not name) who complained about the E-surance ads, saying Star Trek had never done such blatant promotional ads before.

Don't forget the person who insisted that the "real" James Kirk would never indulge in casual sex--and that Gene Roddenberry would have never stooped to including sex appeal and skimpy costumes in STAR TREK!

I admit my jaw dropped at that one. Had they even watched TOS?

 

[Kabraxal]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Also.. in Superman II he actually doesn't kill Zod. They cut the scene in the theatrical release but it was supposed to show that they were basically being confined back into the Phantom Zone.

So he doesn't kill Zod in a cut of the movie that wasn't released in theatres ? Yeah, I'm talking about the theatrical release, sir. Don't tell me he doesn't kill Zod. He crushes his hand and kills him although he is now completely harmless. He falls to his death. Then Lois kills Ursa and all Supes does is smile, as though premeditated murder is funny.

So, please, don't talk about Man of Steel betraying the titular character.

Except it was added into the DOnner cut. And even taking that into account, Superman II showed him actually concerned with people in the fight in the city... unlike this one that shows He and Zod probably killing thousands as they fight.

Sorry if I went into MoS expecting to love it and coming out hating it and hoping for a new reboot... I would rather have enjoyed the movie instead of being disgusted by it. Believe me. I waited 7 years for another Superman film and now I have to wait longer for a good one. Maybe the sequel will get better... certainly can't get worse to me personally.

 

[Belz...]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Except it was added into the DOnner cut.

Yeah, but you don't get to ignore one of two cuts (the most well-known one) and then say he didn't kill him. He did so with a smile. And then he goes back to the diner and kicks the trucker's ass in revenge. That's not the Superman I know from the comics.

And even taking that into account, Superman II showed him actually concerned with people in the fight in the city...

"Don't do it ! The people !"

unlike this one that shows He and Zod probably killing thousands as they fight.

Apples to oranges. First, did you spot the spaceship that almost flattened Metropolis ? That did most of the damage, I'd think. Second, the battle is way more brutal. In II, the Kryptonians were trying to kill Superman. In MoS, Zod was trying to kill humans.

Sorry if I went into MoS expecting to love it and coming out hating it and hoping for a new reboot... I would rather have enjoyed the movie instead of being disgusted by it. Believe me.

I believe you. Wouldn't we all want to love all the movies we see ?

It's unfortunate you didn't like it, but like with STID, I don't appreciate when people pretend that something X that a new movie did is somehow different from the X that a previous entry of the same franchise did; an entry they happen to like. I think it's important to keep perspective.

 

[Greg Cox]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

It is easily the worst iteration of Superman I have seen on TV or screen. Though, it might not have reached the depths of some of the comic iterations yet. It's gotten so bad in the comics that I have stopped reading them.

Whoa. I'm biased, of course, but are you seriously saying that Superman III, Superman Returns, and, holy god, Superman IV: The Quest for Peace were better movies?

The mind boggles . . . .

 

[Belz...]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Returns wasn't too bad. It was too much of a homage to I and II to be worth a sequel, but I liked it, and Spacey as Luthor.

 

[Kabraxal]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

It is easily the worst iteration of Superman I have seen on TV or screen. Though, it might not have reached the depths of some of the comic iterations yet. It's gotten so bad in the comics that I have stopped reading them.

Whoa. I'm biased, of course, but are you seriously saying that Superman III, Superman Returns, and, holy god, Superman IV: The Quest for Peace were better movies?

The mind boggles . . . .

My list is pretty much II, I, Returns, III, IV, and MoS. The older serials were good, though definitely dated. MoS just never felt like a real Superman movie while I was watching it.

Except it was added into the DOnner cut.

Yeah, but you don't get to ignore one of two cuts (the most well-known one) and then say he didn't kill him. He did so with a smile. And then he goes back to the diner and kicks the trucker's ass in revenge. That's not the Superman I know from the comics.

And even taking that into account, Superman II showed him actually concerned with people in the fight in the city...

"Don't do it ! The people !"

unlike this one that shows He and Zod probably killing thousands as they fight.

Apples to oranges. First, did you spot the spaceship that almost flattened Metropolis ? That did most of the damage, I'd think. Second, the battle is way more brutal. In II, the Kryptonians were trying to kill Superman. In MoS, Zod was trying to kill humans.

Sorry if I went into MoS expecting to love it and coming out hating it and hoping for a new reboot... I would rather have enjoyed the movie instead of being disgusted by it. Believe me.

I believe you. Wouldn't we all want to love all the movies we see ?

It's unfortunate you didn't like it, but like with STID, I don't appreciate when people pretend that something X that a new movie did is somehow different from the X that a previous entry of the same franchise did; an entry they happen to like. I think it's important to keep perspective.

I think I came at II and that scene with a perception that he didn't kill them. Even before I saw Donner's cut I never believed he had outright killed Zod for some reason. Course I was like 7 when I first saw it

As for the trucker scene.. yeah, I'll give that one. It was a bit odd that he didn't let it be. Didn't really understand it.

I also think what hurts MoS is that Smallville did the origin story already and had done it for 10 years just before this movie came out essentially... and really did it better. I could by the angstier levels and the struggle of becoming Superman. I think MoS really probably lost me when they had him be so conflicted after donning the suit. In every other Superman story, when he takes the suit.. he is beyond that struggle to realise who he is and what he does.

In MoS, that understanding comes... maybe... at the end of the film, when he's had the suit for a while already. Just doesn't fit the mythology. And Superman is one of the few characters I just give very little leeway for messing with... he's the ideal. The Boy Scout. He should never be anything less and I just felt MoS didn't truly understand that.

 

[Greg Cox]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

If we're getting nostalgic, I remember being very disappointed with SUPERMAN II when it first came out because of all the slapstick comedy Lester added--and the way the movie softened Zod and Co. The first movie did an effective job of building up Zod and Ursa and Non as genuinely scary threats. Heck, we're told that Ursa actually murdered children back on Krypton (a line that was conspicuously deleted from the flashback to their trial in SUPERMAN II). After Hackman's comedic take on Luthor, I was looking forward to seeing Superman take on some truly menacing super-villains.

Alas, while the sequel still had it moments, there was also lots of campy silliness with super-breath, expandable Superman logos made out of Saran wrap, and memory-erasing kisses.

Which, to be fair, probably works when you're seven, but I was in college at the time and hoping for something a little more serious!

I felt like the new movie finally gave me the all-out battle between Superman and Zod that I've been waiting for since 1978 . . ..

 

[Kruezerman]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

*starts humming Superman theme*

 

[Greg Cox]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Returns wasn't too bad. It was too much of a homage to I and II to be worth a sequel, but I liked it, and Spacey as Luthor.

Exactly. The movie has it virtues (the airplane scene is terrific), but, in the end, it probably coasted too heavily on nostalgia for the Donner film instead of going its own way.

 

[Dream]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

As for the trucker scene.. yeah, I'll give that one. It was a bit odd that he didn't let it be. Didn't really understand it.

Clark also had a confrontation with another jerk Trucker in MOS, he didn't quite leave it be either! The way he responded was funny, but a bit rude...

 

[Belz...]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

I also think what hurts MoS is that Smallville did the origin story already and had done it for 10 years just before this movie came out essentially... and really did it better.

Well that's to be expected from a series vs a movie.

In MoS, that understanding comes... maybe... at the end of the film, when he's had the suit for a while already.

I think that was the whole point of the movie, so I didn't mind.

Just doesn't fit the mythology.

We have to avoid being purists, however. Each version of the same story will be different.

Clark also had a confrontation with another jerk Trucker in MOS, he didn't quite leave it be either! The way he responded with funny, but a bit rude...

Yeah, although by that time he wasn't Superman yet. And he didn't beat him up or anything.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

If we're getting nostalgic, I remember being very disappointed with SUPERMAN II when it first came out because of all the slapstick comedy Lester added--and the way the movie softened Zod and Co. The first movie did an effective job of building up Zod and Ursa and Non as genuinely scary threats. Heck, we're told that Ursa actually murdered children back on Krypton (a line that was conspicuously deleted from the flashback to their trial in SUPERMAN II). After Hackman's comedic take on Luthor, I was looking forward to seeing Superman take on some truly menacing super-villains.

Alas, while the sequel still had it moments, there was also lots of campy silliness with super-breath, expandable Superman logos made out of Saran wrap, and memory-erasing kisses.

Which, to be fair, probably works when you're seven, but I was in college at the time and hoping for something a little more serious!

I felt like the new movie finally gave me the all-out battle between Superman and Zod that I've been waiting for since 1978 . . ..

All of this.

Never cared for Lester's work on the Superman movies.

Man of Steel definitely had less 'WTF?' moments plot-wise than Into Darkness.

Yep.

 

[Noname Given]

Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Man of Steel definitely had less 'WTF?' moments plot-wise than Into Darkness.

Sorry, can't agree:

1) Kryptonians explored space for 100,000 years; yet when faced with the destruction of their world (and in this version no one disagrees with Jor El's assessment); can't/won't evacuate even though they are aware of plenty of habitable worlds in range? WTF?

2) Jor El owns/rides a 'flying dragon' (shades of 'Dragon Riders of Pern, or 'Avatar'.) WTF?

3) All Kryptonians are cloned (ala 'The Matrix'); and genetically designed to be the best at their assigned job/role/function. (This is a first for any version of the Superman mythos.) WTF?

4) The 'sacred Codex' (which is somehow the basis of all cloned Kryptonians); is a black, decaying and desiccated partial skull suspended in a laser beam. WTF?

5) When Clarks is talking to Johnathan Kent about the school bus incident, and Clark asks "Should I have let them die?" and Johnathan answers, "Yes, maybe..." (sorry but for me definitely WTF?)

6) Johnathan dies because he doesn't want Clark going back out to save the family dog - and somehow risk exposing his powers to witnesses (even though if it did appear Clark was killed in that instance Clark could have easily come up with an explanation as to how he lived - and the dog wouldn't be able to tell ANYONE of Clark's powers...) WTF?

7) Kal El (aka Superman), who has spent his life avoiding fights, and was not trained to fight by anyone (least of all Johnathan Kent) can, somehow, defeat three kryptonian soldiers, and in the end General Zod himself (after Zod had acclimated to the Earth's atmosphere and his newfound abilities, including flight which he did in the final combat sequence) -- ALL of whom were genetically engineered as well as trained their entire lives to be nothing but combat soldiers...WTF?

Star Trek: Into Darkness:

1) For some reason Kirk decides to hide the U.S.S. Enterprise in the ocean of a primitive planet. WTF?

2) With 70+ odd genetically engineered 'supermen' in stasis; McCoy couldn't have removed one and used his blood to save Kirk? (Allowing Spock to kill Khan, etc if he so wished.) WTF?

3) The U.S. Enterprise can somehow be pulled/fall into Earth's gravity well/atmosphere 200,000+ miles from Earth (IE while in Lunar orbit.) WTF?

In the ST:ID story context as present, the above are pretty much all the major WTF? moments that make little sense. Overall it's still about half (give or take) of the WTF? moments in Man of Steel