Why would Odo fall in love?

[plynch]

I don't think we know how changelings make new ones (I'm sure someone will correct me here, if wrong). But these amorphous beings who are really parts of a superorganism, the Great Link -- they wouldn't have any reproductive function like mammals, right?

And what we call "love" is nature's successful way of mating us up with someone to pair-bond with, procreate, and raise and protect offspring (our gene carriers).

So why would Odo have anything like an ability to have/feel attraction and romantic love?

 

[The Badger]

So why would Odo have anything like an ability to have/feel attraction and romantic love?

Because to most Star Trek writers 'alien' just means 'human with a bumpy forehead'. There are exceptions of course, but for regular characters they have to be human enough for us the audience to relate to.

As to an in universe explanation, perhaps by replicating the form of something a changeling might take on some of it's properties. Being humanoid, for example, could lead to humanoid perspectives, behaviour and instincts. Without knowledge of the Great Link, and having spent most of his existence in a humanoid form, it's at least plausible that Odo would be prone to humanoid emotional responses.

 

[Mr. B]

Can we actually attribute "romantic love" to nature? ...seems like a comparatively new invention.

 

[Amaris]

Can we actually attribute "romantic love" to nature? ...seems like a comparatively new invention.

Agreed. I believe there is procreation and there is love. One does not necessarily require the other.

J.

 

[Navaros]

And what we call "love" is nature's successful way of mating us up with someone to pair-bond with, procreate, and raise and protect offspring (our gene carriers).

Nope, that is incorrect. Love is way more than that. Love is a great gift from God, which Odo was created to have by God just like everyone else. That is why Odo is able to feel love.

 

[neogothboy74]

And what we call "love" is nature's successful way of mating us up with someone to pair-bond with, procreate, and raise and protect offspring (our gene carriers).

I'm gay. I fall in love. When I fall in love it has nothing to do with wanting to procreate. Nothing at all.

And I know lots of hetero people that feel the exact same way.

 

[TheGodBen]

The Founders have said that they were once solid like us, so presumably back then they procreated and required love. When they "evolved" into shape-shifters they probably kept it as a form of vestigial emotion.

 

[od0_ital]

I was just goin' to say, Odo had emotions. And just because he could fall in love, that doesn't mean he was doin' it to procreate.

 

[cb31]

Yeah, what does procreation have to do with love. Odo can be in love without wanting to bang like rabbits all the time and make babies!

 

[TheGodBen]

Yeah, what does procreation have to do with love. Odo can be in love without wanting to bang like rabbits all the time and make babies!

Some people believe humans experience love because the period of time which it takes for a human to reach adulthood is so much longer than most other animals that love was an evolutionary construct whose purpose was to keep the parents together during that period. While it is true that love and procreation are not linked now, that is where I personally believe it came from.

Other believe that love is more spiritual than that, and that could very possibly be the case.

So I think the OP's point was that since the Founders do not procreate they would not have evolved the emotion of love, thus Odo should not be able to feel it.

 

[plynch]

(Thanks, Godben for the help in explaining.)

Re. love, Obviously we don't CONSCIOUSLY think, "I will obsess about person x, lose sleep, ignore his/her faults, feel all elated because that is the strategy that worked best over tens of thousands of years to form pair bonds and pass on genes, thus that strategy/instinct got passed on to me." Even if one consciously doesn't want to procreate, you're still stuck with instincts. Jung's favorite aphorism was, "You can throw nature out with a pitchfork, but she always comes back with a vengeance."

Just like when I bang my thumb and yell, "Ow," I don't consciously think, "I will make noise so my other cave man pals will come and help me in case it's serious, since making noise got help over thousands of years and those who made noise upon injury got better support, thus passed on their genes better than those who kept quiet." I don't think that when I yell, "Ow," but that is why I'm doin' it.

I am truly sorry to make any of you feel bad really. No sarcasm here. It's just behvioral genetics, but think what you want, really. And maybe it IS a "gift from God" if God is the creative order and logos of the cosmos. Be well!

 

[Marie1]

I didn't have a problem with it- Odo grew up around people who loved, he came to be quite a bit like Bajorans- even more thoughtful, concerned about justice, life etc., than they were. So it makes sense he'd want the closeness, the affection, the love that "solids" had too.

 

[Myasishchev]

Can we actually attribute "romantic love" to nature? ...seems like a comparatively new invention.

I'm pretty sure he meant "romantic love" as in the "kind of love predicated on screwing."

Given how long Odo spent as a pretend humanoid, plus the time he spent as a real boy, it probably seemed natural. Plus, his relationship with his own people and his own identity is complicated to say the least.

At the same time, it's pretty clear from Chimera that he didn't stay with Kira out of sexual attraction. He just really dug her, which is sweet. It's comparable to Zefram Cochrane and the Companion, although that relationship made much less sense.

Plus, it's important to remember that Odo's functionally immortal--I'm sure he realized that if he ever did get tired of her, all he would have had to do is wait a little while, for the problem to solve itself.

 

[Daneel]

I personally think that romantic love and sexual love are connected quite closely -- and in that respect, I have to admit I never quite understood Odo falling in love with Kira. Looking at the scenario logically and scientifically, it makes no sense: she's a carbon-based humanoid (a solid) and he's a liquid-based shape-shifter (a changeling). There's no way he could be sexually attracted to her (assuming he even feels anything resembling sexual attraction). They are fundamentally different species, on a surface level and genetic level (at least most of the humanoid aliens we see have certain similarities, and even share a common genetic ancestry).

Thus, I find it a little hard to believe that he would desire her romantically (yeah, maybe I'm jaded, but I think sexual compatibility is an important part of romantic relationships).

Now, I have no problem with the idea of Odo having a deep affection for Kira, moreso than he has for anyone else. Nor do I have a problem with him wanting to be close to her because of this. And perhaps, due to spending his life amongst solids and growing up with their customs and perspectives, he sees his feelings for Kira as love -- and maybe it is love.. just not romantic love as we understand it.

Of course, I could be wrong. After all, "to know a thing is to become a thing". After spending so much time existing in humanoid form, it's possible he picked up a few of our "bad habits"... including the ability to fall in love.

 

[plynch]

The above are interesting speculations. Thank you. I fear too often the show needs storylines, and a producer says, "Hey, so and so could fall in love with so and so!" (Then later, of course, they must get married.)

I will say that the Odo-being-a-Changeling thing aside, his relationship with Kira seems less contrived than Whorf-Dax, even though they're both solids. I wonder why? Maybe it's the acting?

I'm watching season 7 and seeing Bashir-Dax relationship grow, ep by ep. This seems to be planned/written pretty well.

Peace and well-being to you all.

 

[plynch]

After all, "to know a thing is to become a thing".

Very good point.

 

[Verteron]

Of course, I could be wrong. After all, "to know a thing is to become a thing". After spending so much time existing in humanoid form, it's possible he picked up a few of our "bad habits"... including the ability to fall in love.

I like this idea, personally. He's a changeling, not just a shapeshifter. Perhaps when he takes on the appearance and characteristics of something or someone, he can also experience to a degree what it's like to be one of them and how they feel.

Also, it's established fact the changelings were once solid. Perhaps they have humanoid emotions which are latent, even if they are no-longer for any actual physical need.

 

[Aquehonga]

Why would'nt Odo fall in love?

 

[JustKate]

Gotta agree with Aquehonga here - why in the world wouldn't he fall in love?

Romantic love has an element of sex, sure, and usually a fairly strong element at that, but for one thing, as more than one person has pointed out, sex doesn't equal "procreation." For another, even the least promising romance (as contrasted with plain old "having the hots for somebody") involves a lot more than sex or the desire for procreation - there's idealism and tenderness and protectiveness and all kinds of things.

And surely this is almost always the case when somebody developes romantic feelings for a friend, a pal, a comrade, somebody you actually care about aside from whatever sexual longings you may have.

One other thing: love isn't quite the same thing as romance, either. It can start out that way, but it can grow into SO much more.

I don't want to insult anybody here, but if you really do think sex=procreation=romance=love...wait a while to get married or establish some other difficult-to-dissolve bond, OK? Really.

 

[TheGodBen]

I'm going to clear things up a little here.

Love != Procreation, and nobody is making that claim. But there are those of us who don't believe in god and we don't believe in spiritualism and we like to take a completely grounded and scientific viewpoint on things, including love. I personally think that love is some form of chemical reaction in the brain. That doesn't affect its power on me; it doesn't diminish its majesty, and nor does it make a broken heart any easier, but that is what I think it is.

So why is there love in the first place?

Humans take a long time to develop, much longer than most other animals. It can take a full year for us to learn how to walk and talk, and it takes roughly 15 years before a human is able to fend for itself. Humans also require a lot more attention and training from their parents than other animals do. Humans who were raised by both parents were probably more likely to survive tens of thousands of years ago when we were an uncivilised species, so their children were more likely to choose to stay with their mate. Over thousands of generations this led to the evolution of love as we know it today where it hardly seems like a decision at all, we are "forced" to stay with our "mate" by this incredibly powerful emotion.

I am not saying that love and procreation are the same thing, just that love has its roots in procreation.

So if the shape-shifters do not procreate they would not have evolved the chemical reaction in their matrix to cause love. This is what I interpret the OP was trying to discuss. But we should all remember that we are talking about sentient goo that can change its shape and mass, so we probably shouldn't be taking it all so seriously.