Why would God send someone to hell over suicide?

[Amaris]

He doesn't send anyone to hell. We send ourselves by not accepting His way of salvation that is only thru His Son Jesus. I don't believe committing suicide will send someone there. Samson killed himself and all that was with him and he didn't go there cause God knew what he was going to do and still gave him the strength to do it..Only an unsaved person goes to hell.

Yep, it is really simple, I don't know why people try to make it more complicated than it is.

It is a very simple idea.
It's also barbaric.

Even at my most devout, hell made no theological sense. George Carlin said it best:

"Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you!"


Any god who would send a person to hell because they wouldn't take some stranger's word for it is not a good god. He is a merciless tyrant. If he were a husband or a father he would be abusive. If he were a human dictator he would be deplored by every civilized nation. Yet because he has the indistinct quality of being God, he is praised.

J.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Also let's be clear on something folks: if you are agnostic, you are also an atheist, because if you don't know if any god claim is true or not, you cannot believe that it is (which is what a theist is, and atheism covers everything else.)

Is that clear?

I don't want to derail this thread in another theological fuckfest, but I'm not sure I agree with this assessment. It's been said and said: philosophically speaking, agnosticism is a position about knowledge, not belief.

You may be an agnostic ("I don't know there is a god") and still a theist ("but I think there is"). It may not be a rational belief, but rationality is not the end of everything and all (and I say that as an hardcore materialist atheist).

People may believe in a deity not due to a strict positivist belief ("I believe there is a god because I saw him"), but also due to some emotional reasons ("believing there is a god over the uniiverse makes me feel good, maybe it's not true but I still like it").

Then you need to consider the various flavours of agnosticism, that is far from being a monolithic position: strong (or inherent) agnostics think that the knowledge of God in inherently unknowable, and that believing/not believing is only a matter of personal faith; soft (practical) agnostics think that, while they don't claim any actual knowlegde about the existence of God, admit the possibility of acquiring them (by whatever mean). There are then the ignostics, who claim that the question "does god exist?" is simply meaningless.

Lastly, there are many different theistic and atheistic position, with different view about the number, nature, scope, and interest in human affairs of the supposed deity. Belief (and disbelief) in a transcendent, singular, omnipotent but personal god is definitively not the only line of thinking.

As you see, there is more variety of interpretations than you seem to suppose in your statement.

You're right that they are two different things. However, knowledge is a subset of belief. If you don't think you know something, how can you believe it?

 

[Rusty phaser]

He doesn't send anyone to hell. We send ourselves by not accepting His way of salvation that is only thru His Son Jesus.

Then that would be him sending us there since he has set the rules. I'm gonna make an analogy to Hitler again - I hope noone takes offense to it.

The above argument could be used to say that a jew who got murdered in a concentration camp was not murdered by the nazis, but instead it was his own fault for not accepting the nazis ideals for "salvation" (i.e. not being a jew).
(Note also that this analogy goes even deeper since it's a question of dying because you have the wrong religion).

It is very much your god that condemns people to eternal torture. Since he is suposedly allpowerfull he could chose to rather just terminate the non-believers existens. Instead he choses for them to be eternally tortured.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I agree with Shatmandu, and I think Mr. Lazer Beam is a nut, no offence.

Yes offense. Please don't make comments like that about fellow Posters.

I was out of line there.

I apologize!

 

[Chaos Descending]

I am an atheist, and it's been a long time coming, I think.

Huh. Well, ok.

If so, then you've either been mentally ill, or a colossal liar in the past. I don't intend that as a flame, but it is an inescapable truth.

 

[John Picard]

A much better question would be, "Why does God send anyone to hell?"

Even if God is so petty as to subscribe to the "an eye for an eye" nonsense (unlikely since even us small, flawed Humans are capable of rising above that), no Human is capable of committing so heinous a crime to equate to eternal torture. I doubt any Human has the ability to even imagine a crime equivalent to that - much less carry it out.

firstly, God doesn't send anyone to hell, he wants everyone to go to heaven, but he has given us free will for us to decide our fate

secondly, God is is control of everything, and has the power to do anything, and quite frankly he can do whatever he wants, we can't understand him in human emotional terms, but we do know he loves us, and does desire us to be with him in heaven, he wants the best for us, but again we have free will so we decide for ourselves if we chose to follow ourselves or him

If God is in control of everything, then how can we have "Free Will"? Christianity is full of conflicting and paradoxical information.

 

[Brent]

He doesn't send anyone to hell. We send ourselves by not accepting His way of salvation that is only thru His Son Jesus. I don't believe committing suicide will send someone there. Samson killed himself and all that was with him and he didn't go there cause God knew what he was going to do and still gave him the strength to do it..Only an unsaved person goes to hell.

Yep, it is really simple, I don't know why people try to make it more complicated than it is.

It is a very simple idea.
It's also barbaric.

Even at my most devout, hell made no theological sense. George Carlin said it best:

"Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you!"


Any god who would send a person to hell because they wouldn't take some stranger's word for it is not a good god. He is a merciless tyrant. If he were a husband or a father he would be abusive. If he were a human dictator he would be deplored by every civilized nation. Yet because he has the indistinct quality of being God, he is praised.

J.

Your applying your own human emotions and feelings on the matter, quite frankly, you are not above God. We cannot understand him in our terms. What is cruel to you, is not cruel to him, if you think he is cruel, then you completely misunderstand God.

At any rate, you cannot begin to understand him, or the Bible, until you put your faith in Jesus Christ as your savior. That is the starting place, and it is actually a really easy thing to do.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Your applying your own human emotions and feelings on the matter, quite frankly, you are not above God. We cannot understand him in our terms. What is cruel to you, is not cruel to him, if you think he is cruel, then you completely misunderstand God.

At any rate, you cannot begin to understand him, or the Bible, until you put your faith in Jesus Christ as your savior. That is the starting place, and it is actually a really easy thing to do.

You do realize that Santa Claus / J. Allen used to be a practising minister, right? Then he became a "Christian Mystic" and (according to him) had frequent deep and personal conversations with Jesus Christ himself, and now is apparently an atheist, which makes me wonder who exactly he thinks he was having all of these conversations with when he was a mystic.

 

[Brent]

A much better question would be, "Why does God send anyone to hell?"

Even if God is so petty as to subscribe to the "an eye for an eye" nonsense (unlikely since even us small, flawed Humans are capable of rising above that), no Human is capable of committing so heinous a crime to equate to eternal torture. I doubt any Human has the ability to even imagine a crime equivalent to that - much less carry it out.

firstly, God doesn't send anyone to hell, he wants everyone to go to heaven, but he has given us free will for us to decide our fate

secondly, God is is control of everything, and has the power to do anything, and quite frankly he can do whatever he wants, we can't understand him in human emotional terms, but we do know he loves us, and does desire us to be with him in heaven, he wants the best for us, but again we have free will so we decide for ourselves if we chose to follow ourselves or him

If God is in control of everything, then how can we have "Free Will"? Christianity is full of conflicting and paradoxical information.

I should say, God could control our fate, but then we wouldn't have free will. As it stands, we have the power to decide our fate.

 

[Brent]

Your applying your own human emotions and feelings on the matter, quite frankly, you are not above God. We cannot understand him in our terms. What is cruel to you, is not cruel to him, if you think he is cruel, then you completely misunderstand God.

At any rate, you cannot begin to understand him, or the Bible, until you put your faith in Jesus Christ as your savior. That is the starting place, and it is actually a really easy thing to do.

You do realize that Santa Claus / J. Allen used to be a practising minister, right? Then he became a "Christian Mystic" and (according to him) had frequent deep and personal conversations with Jesus Christ himself, and now is a apparently an atheist.

Being a "Practicing Minister" aint gonna send you to heaven.

There is but only one way, and no other way, faith in Jesus Christ as your personal savior.

I'm not going to force anyone to do anything, as I've stated, you have the free will to decide if you believe that or not.

All I can account for are my actions and choices in the end.

 

[John Picard]

firstly, God doesn't send anyone to hell, he wants everyone to go to heaven, but he has given us free will for us to decide our fate

secondly, God is is control of everything, and has the power to do anything, and quite frankly he can do whatever he wants, we can't understand him in human emotional terms, but we do know he loves us, and does desire us to be with him in heaven, he wants the best for us, but again we have free will so we decide for ourselves if we chose to follow ourselves or him

If God is in control of everything, then how can we have "Free Will"? Christianity is full of conflicting and paradoxical information.

I should say, God could control our fate, but then we wouldn't have free will. As it stands, we have the power to decide our fate.

It's still a paradox. We're "given a choice" but the problem is that if we don't choose A over B, then we're penalized. Trust me, I spent my youth in the Christian Summer (Indoctrination) Camps, where all of the stops were pulled with their scare tactics. It's the same story every time: You have free will; HOWEVER, if you don't choose this path, then you're eternally damned.

Doesn't sound like Free Will to me. Again, it's all conflicting and paradoxes.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think it quite likely that the abrogation of free will is worse than the loss of physical life itself...that even to feel pain and to die are mild in comparison to what it would be like to have our minds stolen from us, and that is why God does not do that to us despite the major risks inherent in leaving our minds be.

(And no, that's not just my feelings on the Borg. I think it actually explains a lot.)

Again, I think that the actual outcome (salvation/damnation) is very much between God and the individual, and for me to make an assumption about who is and is not going to hell is WAY out of line for me. I believe such a thing exists. How large or small its population is, though, I do not know. Again, I believe God is scrupulously fair, and I do not know all that He does within the hearts of each individual, nor all of what happens in that time between life and death. I do not believe, for instance, that He would condemn someone because of the time period or nation in which He himself placed them--and given that, I believe I had better not presume I have all the pieces.

As I said before, I believe that Christianity is by far the safest and most logical way, and I would certainly encourage people to pray and learn, if they feel so led, and to turn their lives over to Christ. But it is out of that same belief that I feel very strongly that it is not within my ability or place to make judgments about others' souls as though they hold any force.

 

[Brent]

If God is in control of everything, then how can we have "Free Will"? Christianity is full of conflicting and paradoxical information.

I should say, God could control our fate, but then we wouldn't have free will. As it stands, we have the power to decide our fate.

It's still a paradox. We're "given a choice" but the problem is that if we don't choose A over B, then we're penalized. Trust me, I spent my youth in the Christian Summer (Indoctrination) Camps, where all of the stops were pulled with their scare tactics. It's the same story every time: You have free will; HOWEVER, if you don't choose this path, then you're eternally damned.

Doesn't sound like Free Will to me. Again, it's all conflicting and paradoxes.

It isn't like God is asking you to kill your first born or anything, believing in Jesus is quite an easy thing to do. I can't understand why someone wouldn't, I mean, why take the chance? Perhaps we just like to be in control, and think we know better. That is our folly.

 

[John Picard]

I should say, God could control our fate, but then we wouldn't have free will. As it stands, we have the power to decide our fate.

It's still a paradox. We're "given a choice" but the problem is that if we don't choose A over B, then we're penalized. Trust me, I spent my youth in the Christian Summer (Indoctrination) Camps, where all of the stops were pulled with their scare tactics. It's the same story every time: You have free will; HOWEVER, if you don't choose this path, then you're eternally damned.

Doesn't sound like Free Will to me. Again, it's all conflicting and paradoxes.

It isn't like God is asking you to kill your first born or anything, believing in Jesus is quite an easy thing to do. I can't understand why someone wouldn't, I mean, why take the chance? Perhaps we just like to be in control, and think we know better. That is our folly.

No. Organized religion is a folly. I loved your diatribe about the bible being God's official word. Like (all) Christians, you have no clue how the book, in its present form, came to be.

FYI - Check out Zoroastrianism.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Being a "Practicing Minister" aint gonna send you to heaven.

Not even remotely my point.

There is but only one way, and no other way, faith in Jesus Christ as your personal savior.

My point was, you're trying to tell that to someone who used to tell other people himself, but has since rejected that path.

You can't teach himself that he doesn't already know and reject.

 

[Chaos Descending]

If God is in control of everything, then how can we have "Free Will"? Christianity is full of conflicting and paradoxical information.

I should say, God could control our fate, but then we wouldn't have free will. As it stands, we have the power to decide our fate.

It's still a paradox. We're "given a choice" but the problem is that if we don't choose A over B, then we're penalized. Trust me, I spent my youth in the Christian Summer (Indoctrination) Camps, where all of the stops were pulled with their scare tactics. It's the same story every time: You have free will; HOWEVER, if you don't choose this path, then you're eternally damned.

Doesn't sound like Free Will to me. Again, it's all conflicting and paradoxes.

That's the same thing we have in the secular world.

You can choose to steal or not steal, kill or not kill, but if you choose poorly, you're going to jail.

 

[Scout101]

It isn't like God is asking you to kill your first born or anything, believing in Jesus is quite an easy thing to do. I can't understand why someone wouldn't, I mean, why take the chance? Perhaps we just like to be in control, and think we know better. That is our folly.

That's easier to say if you're raised in a Christian society, though. If you were raised in Japan, or India, you'd just as naturally be part of their religions, and it wouldn't be normal to have even been exposed to another option.

That's part of what always (for me) exposes the whole "believe in Jesus, and accept him as your Savior, or burn in Hell" thing as completely foolish.

Following that decree to the letter, and as intended, Ghandi is burning in Hell at this very moment. Seems kinda off, no?

Or, to go another way, Jesus was born in the Middle East 2000 years ago, give or take. No internet, no phones, no airplanes. How many millions of people lived and died without the news reaching them, even giving them a CHANCE to decide on the issue? Are they in Hell as well, since Jesus had come and gone without them accepting him? It took Christians 1500 years to get to America, give or take, did all those people go to Hell?

If you believe in the general ideas of the Bible (kindness, charity, high morals, etc), but were raised Hindi instead of Christian, do you burn in Hell? Seems like people want to lord it over others as a strict "letter of the law" sort of thing, but if the God they describe really exists, i'd think he'd be a much bigger fan of those with goodness in their hearts, and living the 'right' way, rather than those that can parrot Bible verses, often while using them as a weapon against others, or those that are Christian simply by virtue of having been born in that environment...

 

[JustKate]

It's still a paradox. We're "given a choice" but the problem is that if we don't choose A over B, then we're penalized. Trust me, I spent my youth in the Christian Summer (Indoctrination) Camps, where all of the stops were pulled with their scare tactics. It's the same story every time: You have free will; HOWEVER, if you don't choose this path, then you're eternally damned.

Doesn't sound like Free Will to me. Again, it's all conflicting and paradoxes.

A huge part of the problem with this conversation - with any conversation on heaven and hell - is that we actually have no idea what these two things/places/concepts are, and the reason is, we are mere mortals, living in time, and if these two things/places/concepts exist, they are beyond time. So any explanation we get, and that includes the Bible, is going to have to use our frame of reference...and of course, we have no frame of reference for a thing/place/concept that is beyond time.

At least I sure don't.

There are some who believe that hell is nothing more nor less than the final and ultimate separation from God, in which case, there wouldn't be any lakes of fire or whatever. If that is the case, then it's easy to see why it would be a choice and why this is a choice that God cannot make for us.

Again, I think that the actual outcome (salvation/damnation) is very much between God and the individual, and for me to make an assumption about who is and is not going to hell is WAY out of line for me. I believe such a thing exists. How large or small its population is, though, I do not know. Again, I believe God is scrupulously fair, and I do not know all that He does within the hearts of each individual, nor all of what happens in that time between life and death. I do not believe, for instance, that He would condemn someone because of the time period or nation in which He himself placed them--and given that, I believe I had better not presume I have all the pieces.

Very well put. We don't know. All any of us can do is the best that he can do.

Edit:

If you believe in the general ideas of the Bible (kindness, charity, high morals, etc), but were raised Hindi instead of Christian, do you burn in Hell? Seems like people want to lord it over others as a strict "letter of the law" sort of thing, but if the God they describe really exists, i'd think he'd be a much bigger fan of those with goodness in their hearts, and living the 'right' way, rather than those that can parrot Bible verses, often while using them as a weapon against others, or those that are Christian simply by virtue of having been born in that environment...

Again, very well put. Even though I am a Christian, I think it's at least possible that there is more than one way to heaven. I'm sure you can only get there through God, but I, at least, cannot be definitive that it has to include that part of God we call Jesus. It could be, but I don't know. And God can have many names.

And as I said before, and as Nerys said just a few posts back, I know for sure that it's not my place to judge. That's between each individual and God.

 

[John Picard]

It's still a paradox. We're "given a choice" but the problem is that if we don't choose A over B, then we're penalized. Trust me, I spent my youth in the Christian Summer (Indoctrination) Camps, where all of the stops were pulled with their scare tactics. It's the same story every time: You have free will; HOWEVER, if you don't choose this path, then you're eternally damned.

Doesn't sound like Free Will to me. Again, it's all conflicting and paradoxes.

A huge part of the problem with this conversation - with any conversation on heaven and hell - is that we actually have no idea what these two things/places/concepts are, and the reason is, we are mere mortals, living in time, and if these two things/places/concepts exist, they are beyond time. So any explanation we get, and that includes the Bible, is going to have to use our frame of reference...and of course, we have no frame of reference for a thing/place/concept that is beyond time.

At least I sure don't.

There are some who believe that hell is nothing more nor less than the final and ultimate separation from God, in which case, there wouldn't be any lakes of fire or whatever. If that is the case, then it's easy to see why it would be a choice and why this is a choice that God cannot make for us.

Again, I think that the actual outcome (salvation/damnation) is very much between God and the individual, and for me to make an assumption about who is and is not going to hell is WAY out of line for me. I believe such a thing exists. How large or small its population is, though, I do not know. Again, I believe God is scrupulously fair, and I do not know all that He does within the hearts of each individual, nor all of what happens in that time between life and death. I do not believe, for instance, that He would condemn someone because of the time period or nation in which He himself placed them--and given that, I believe I had better not presume I have all the pieces.

Very well put. We don't know. All any of us can do is the best that he can do.

Here is my take/questions: Assuming the Christian-centric god exists, why not make himself known to a world of 6+ billion people? Why only manifest for a brief period of time, in the Middle East, over 5,000 years ago, and nary another peep?

 

[Chaos Descending]

EDIT: NM