Why would God send someone to hell over suicide?

[Amaris]

Um, if I want to make myself known to people, I make an effort. I don't talk to one person and instruct that individual to contact the rest of the world.

But John, assuming for another second that we religious people are right...he didn't talk to just one person (and what "person" are you talking about, I wonder)? He is reported in the Old Testament to have talked to quite a few different people (Moses, the prophets). He sent Jesus, who talked to lots of people, performed miracles, etc.

Sure it was a long time ago, but let's be honest: Would you find it any easier to believe if it was 50 years ago or 100 years ago? Or would you only believe if he talked directly and inescapably to you?

I expect it's the latter. Because you find faith - believing without direct proof - difficult. Some people do. That's just way it is. I'm not faulting you for it, and I'm not trying to talk you out of it, but that is what it sounds like to me.

I think the person he's referring to specifically is Moses, in the case of the Ten Commandments. I think.

J.

 

[John Picard]

Um, if I want to make myself known to people, I make an effort. I don't talk to one person and instruct that individual to contact the rest of the world.

But John, assuming for another second that we religious people are right...he didn't talk to just one person (and what "person" are you talking about, I wonder)? He is reported in the Old Testament to have talked to quite a few different people (Moses, the prophets). He sent Jesus, who talked to lots of people, performed miracles, etc.

Sure it was a long time ago, but let's be honest: Would you find it any easier to believe if it was 50 years ago or 100 years ago? Or would you only believe if he talked directly and inescapably to you?

I expect it's the latter. Because you find faith - believing without direct proof - difficult. Some people do. That's just way it is. I'm not faulting you for it, and I'm not trying to talk you out of it, but that is what it sounds like to me.

Think of it like a pre-paid telephone card. It has to be recharged from time to time. I'm not stating that a deity speak to just one person because there's no credibility. Making one's presence known to masses is what it takes.

Honestly, I think you're purposefully being obtuse.

 

[Davros]

Your applying your own human emotions and feelings on the matter, quite frankly, you are not above God. We cannot understand him in our terms. What is cruel to you, is not cruel to him, if you think he is cruel, then you completely misunderstand God.

At any rate, you cannot begin to understand him, or the Bible, until you put your faith in Jesus Christ as your savior. That is the starting place, and it is actually a really easy thing to do.

Oh bullshit. If something is immoral for us to do. It is immoral for a being that is more powerful than us to do it as well. Might does not make right.

 

[JustKate]

Think of it like a pre-paid telephone card. It has to be recharged from time to time. I'm not stating that a deity speak to just one person because there's no credibility. Making one's presence known to masses is what it takes.

Honestly, I think you're purposefully being obtuse.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I think we both just don't understand each other.

 

[Gepard]

...and now is apparently an atheist, which makes me wonder who exactly he thinks he was having all of these conversations with when he was a mystic.

When you pray, who are you talking to?

J.

I'll throw in that, when I was a kid (and even a teenager), I'd talk to my stuffed animals. Didn't mean that they were actually alive, just that I liked to believe there was someone there listening to me.

It just occurred to me that, since I read these posts to myself in my head as I type them, I'm basically still talking to myself.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I'll throw in that, when I was a kid (and even a teenager), I'd talk to my stuffed animals. Didn't mean that they were actually alive, just that I liked to believe there was someone there listening to me.

It just occurred to me that, since I read these posts to myself in my head as I type them, I'm basically still talking to myself.

Yeah, but don't you dare to tell us that this is proof that you actually exist!

 

[Silvercrest]

I think... therefore I am.

I post on the TrekBBS... therefore I stop thinking... therefore I am not.

Oh crap.

<poof>

 

[Gepard]

Yeah, but don't you dare to tell us that this is proof that you actually exist!

Sorry, but the thread for that is over here.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I agree with Shatmandu, and I think Mr. Lazer Beam is a nut, no offence.

Yes offense. Please don't make comments like that about fellow Posters.

I was out of line there.

I apologize!

Thank you.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I am an atheist, and it's been a long time coming, I think.

Huh. Well, ok.

If so, then you've either been mentally ill, or a colossal liar in the past. I don't intend that as a flame, but it is an inescapable truth.

Or he changed his mind. Again, this is not the kind of thing that should be Posted here. Make arguments, not personal insults.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Ok.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

It's funny the way the OT is often dismissed, not as the word of god but as gthe attudes of the people. But in each case, isn't it God that is telling people what to do, or that the god is killing people? If the Old testament is not an accurate representation of what God wanted, why not call it outdated and chuck it. Beides, Jesus said that not a tittle of the old law will be changed. People still cherish the 10 commandments and they are OT. So there you have it. The thing is when him and haw over the bible and what it means and start saying "oh that's Old Testmanet and that's new" or this should be taken literally and that shouldn't you're forgetting the fact that: The bible says what it says. It portrays the message that it portrays, and if it is so badly written that people can interpret in so many ways or dismiss whole passages altogether, what value is it?

Besides, even worse that anything in the OT is the NT. Everything in the OT ends in death, but the NT disctates what happens or can happen for eternity, and it holds people accouintable for thought crimes. It's the true definition of fascism.

I wrote this (paraphrased) on another thread, about the bible, and how literally passages like Genesis should be taken:

" I must say that, in my humble opinion, when it comes to a text as widely viewed as truth by so many people, when it comes to a text that can be and has been interpreted in millions of different ways from kings to leaders to the common man, when it comes to a text that has been, is, and will continue to be a source of education and inspiration, I still say that its mere eloquence is not enough. Example: I believe the Constitution was an eloquently written document, particularly the preamble (similarly, the Declaration of Independence is a stroke of literary brilliance in its phrasing, and we can talk about the Creator line later ) and yet the Constitution is at all times clear, specific, practical, and forward-thinking.
Though everyone has their own way of measuring what is aesthetically pleasing, the Genesis passage is seen by a great many people as eloquent and simple, and since it may be be (as you say) not to be confused with science, people say it cannot be criticized as such, I'm forced to think of a line from, of all places, Men in Black: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it." Undoubtedly some or even many people that read and take heed to the Bible, don't look for mere eloquence in the Bible, instead they see absolute truth, they see something that cannot be questioned, and even if they don't take it literally, they are captured by it in a way that I think is unhealthy, as the ability to think critically, and to have intellectually honesty about what exists and how things came about, has been eroded by the core beliefs that are rooted in this text.

 

[Amaris]

I am an atheist, and it's been a long time coming, I think.

Huh. Well, ok.

If so, then you've either been mentally ill, or a colossal liar in the past. I don't intend that as a flame, but it is an inescapable truth.

Or he changed his mind. Again, this is not the kind of thing that should be Posted here. Make arguments, not personal insults.

Exactly (although I don't think Chaos Descending was trying to put it as an insult).

For me, losing the faith wasn't just one massive revelation, it was a death of a thousand cuts. Here and there, little bits of logic and reason would flick at my faith and start creating gaps, until I had to change what it was I believed. This had gone on for some time, and there are some people who know it's been heading in this direction for a while. I'm pretty sure FlyingLemons knew even though I didn't even know yet.

I believed right up until the moment I didn't, and I have to say it was a unique experience stepping across the threshold. So there was no lying involved, no deceit, and no mental issues, unless you want to say every religious person has severe mental issues (I don't think they do), it leaves the option that I simply came to my conclusions and had a change of heart, as it were.

As I had said elsewhere, I always had trouble reconciling aspects of my faith, seeking tradition, I found it empty and repetitive with no useful purpose, so I scoured the Bible to know more. It was at this point that certain friends and family members told me that if I kept doing too much critical thinking, I would be in danger of hellfire. Yes, that is what they said, I swear. Anyhoo, finally I realized that for me the Bible didn't hold any answers. So I kept looking further and further, as much as I could take in, and when it all finally came together, those thousand cuts of reason had left me realizing that for me, God just didn't pass muster in terms of existence.

One of the examples I used to employ was the idea that I could create a brand new religion, make it any way I want to, as ambiguous and dogmatic as I wanted to, and then build my own church for that religion. I could speak with complete authority, and no one could tell me my religion was false, because my religion had the exact same level of evidence as the next religion. I could even have prophets and priests, traditions, words of meaning and prayer, and even a charity for those in need. The only difference would be that my religion was made yesterday, and the God of the Bible has a couple of thousand years on me. Other than that, it would be the very same, and I'd have the same success rate in terms of prayer, divine revelation and faith healing.

So if I could produce a religion that easily (and I could), how ineffective and poorly planned is the one put into effect by the God of the Bible, when there are literally millions of gods in the pantheon of religion. The only reason Christianity is as powerful as it is today, is because the State adopted it as their official religion, which helped propagate it to distant lands and picked up by the locals as the State religion.

I have no problems with people of religion. Wait, I have no problems with people of religion who aren't extremists, which fortunately, means most people. It's not like I stepped through a transporter and it wiped my memory clean of my life when it was deeply involved in faith. Some people speak to me like I'm some guy who just fell off the turnip truck. I still have all of my religious knowledge, I still understand what it feels like to believe. I simply do not do so and find no need to believe. That's all.

J.

 

[Scout101]

two points I'd make on that, J:

You've actually 'quit' and become athiest or agnostic before, and then went back. Believe you called it a test of faith, or something along those lines. What was different about this experience? Curious to see if this is more profound/permanent, or another phase.

Secondly, I interpreted Chaos's post as more of a question. Basically, when you said you heard God answering your questions (and you described it like a discussion instead of inspiration or a relevation), where was the answer coming from? You were 'hearing' a voice, giving advice, telling you what you should do, etc. If it wasn't God, and you currently believe it was not, what was it? Just seemed Chaos took the natural extrapolation that if you're hearing voices, and from a POV that doesn't match your own, it's not the healthiest thing in the world. Not as an insult, just an interpretation. I assume that's where the 'mental illness' thing came from...

Difficult to reconcile things when someone that attributes so much to God suddenly says that they don't believe God exists. Where does that leave everything else?

 

[Chaos Descending]

Thank you, Scout. You summed up my chain of logic perfectly.

 

[Amaris]

two points I'd make on that, J:

You've actually 'quit' and become athiest or agnostic before, and then went back. Believe you called it a test of faith, or something along those lines. What was different about this experience? Curious to see if this is more profound/permanent, or another phase.

In that particular case, even when I didn't believe there was a god, deep down I believed there was a God. It was more of a "somebody shut off the lights but I know there's an engineer there somewhere". In mysticism, there is an experience that gives such a person a momentary glimpse into what it's like not to have knowledge of God. It's called "The Dark Night of the Soul". That is what I passed through. It was a foregone conclusion (although I didn't know it at the time) that I would once more go back to believing as my "soul was restored".

As it is now, I have no such feeling whatsoever. In fact, I have already become more firmly entrenched in my non-belief, beginning even to rationalize away the experienced I believed I had felt when I was a follower of the faith.

Secondly, I interpreted Chaos's post as more of a question. Basically, when you said you heard God answering your questions (and you described it like a discussion instead of inspiration or a relevation), where was the answer coming from? You were 'hearing' a voice, giving advice, telling you what you should do, etc. If it wasn't God, and you currently believe it was not, what was it? Just seemed Chaos took the natural extrapolation that if you're hearing voices, and from a POV that doesn't match your own, it's not the healthiest thing in the world. Not as an insult, just an interpretation. I assume that's where the 'mental illness' thing came from...

Yeah, I figured that's what he meant. Chaos Descending has always been a decent fellow. I think, when one believes, that you can hear what you believe is the right thing to hear, and interpret it as something said of God. It's like a religious placebo. You take what you know (or think you know) and reinforce it with the idea that it's really working, and what you get is what people do to this day, that being, "the prayer healed so and so", "God helped me pass this test", and so on and so forth. Just as the human eye will see a face where only random objects exist, I think the human mind tries to piece together a metaphysical puzzle based on the mundane. That one's just an idea, though. I don't know if it has any logical basis. I'm just postulating at the moment.

Difficult to reconcile things when someone that attributes so much to God suddenly says that they don't believe God exists. Where does that leave everything else?

It just shows that the one constant in the universe is that everything changes.

J.

 

[Rusty phaser]

He could appear right now out of thin air, sit down here with me and just talk to me. That would make me accept his existence. Then whether I agreed to his terms after our chat is another question.
I just don't think it's fair of him to judge me based on rules that he doesn't care to show me. (Note that I can't accept the bible as true because the Torah, the Koran, The Egyptian Book of the Dead etc all have the same claim.) If he could just talk to me I would know what the rules are and could then decide and make that decision that ultimately will reward me with eternal bliss or eternal torture.
I think that would be in any all loving gods interest.

Don't you think that would be fair? And don't you agree that it would be a very simple task for the christian god to do?

Let me get this straight. I swear I am not trying to be a smartass and I am not trying to belittle you. I swear. I would just like you to realize how what you're saying here sounds to me.

Assume for a second that those of us who are religious are right, OK? Just for a second. And assume that there is a loving God (Christian, Muslim, whatever) who is offering you personally eternal life and abundance everafter in exchange for faith and trying to do God's will during your mortal life. OK? Just for a second. Just a tiny little second.

So...God has to do all the work? You, the one being offered everything, owe this god nothing? You don't have to do any work at all? You will "graciously" believe in him so long as he sells himself to you personally, one on one?

Oh, Rusty. No, I don't think that would be "fair."

There is a way to talk to God, but I don't think it's the kind of conversation you have in mind. It's called prayer - I know that sounds flip, but I really and truly do not mean it that way. Prayer doesn't usually result in God speaking to me directly from On High (as far as I can tell), but it usually results in my being pretty sure what he wants from me. Whether I do it or not...that's another matter. Hey, I said I was religious - I didn't say I was always obedient.

This will have to be a somewhat quick reply as it's early morning here and I'm soon off to work :P

I'm not saying that the god has to do all the work. I'm just saying that if what he really wants is for everyone to believe and love him, he could at least try to make sure that people get to know him. I just have an incredibly hard time seeing why he would not want that himself since it is so important to him that he gladly will sentence anyone not loving him to eternal torture.

The whole weird thing to me is the "faith" part. Why, oh why, would your god rather that you have faith than actually knowing? Does god want his minions to be uncritically thinking minions?
To me what you and others are saying is such an obvious attempt of rationalizing the fact of your god not showing any kind of sign of his suposed existence.

I know my human little mind is to weak to understand why god think it's quite acceptable to sentence for example 80% of the population of Sweden and 95% of the population of Japan to eternal suffering just because they are not practicing christians.
I can only say that if I were a God who hated these people so much that I'd gladly send them to eternal torture I'd at least ease my consciousness by popping by and say "Hello guys, seriously, I am real even though your parents never told you about me or your teachers did not force you to sing christian songs in school."

If I was a ruler who wanted to create the best kingdom ever I for sure would like to have citizens that think rationally. If they criticize me I'd make sure I'd try to explain my motives to them rather than sending them off to the torture chambers for being dissidents.

I promise you - I would like for there to be a loving God. I just can't rape my mind so much as to ignore everything that is the logical epic fail that is christianity. If God exist he should understand my reasoning and know that he could change my mindset by just having a short chat with me. If not that alone is a reason for not accepting him since he is irrational and cruel.

What I find so funny is that many who read this will now happily think about me being tortured for my non-belief. That to me is very telling about the mindset of religious people. (Note I'm not saying that you, kate, think this.)

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It might seem easy to dismiss the small, everyday graces. It's a lot harder to do after you've had visions. Mind you, this is not something that happens frequently to me, not something I ask for, nor is it something I "profit" from in any manner (i.e. I am not some sort of clairvoyant). I do not indulge in drugs, mind-altering substances, alcohol, or cigarettes (and unfortunately even had to stop with the coffee thanks to stomach problems), so that's not a factor. I also know what lucid dreaming feels like, as well as a number of hypnogogic and other semi-conscious states, and this did not line up at all with them as far as the feel, the mental awareness, the coherence of the scenario, and a number of other things. But, I've had some experiences that were of such a degree of power that I simply cannot ignore them. In the most powerful case, there is even the possibility that I nearly died. And what happened to me then, what I saw, what I felt, what I was on the verge of becoming...I just cannot walk away from that.

Nor can I walk away from the immense beauty of the natural world and the way in which it was designed. To study math and science is a transcendent experience, and I mean that. During the period in my life when I was not going to church and I was experiencing very severe doubts...all I can say is that to be in the classroom then, studying those things, was like being in the most wonderful cathedral imaginable. It still is. Whoever came up with that title "The Cold Equations"...don't let your algebra teacher fool you. They were wrong. Calculus sure isn't cold or void. It's hard to explain how, but there is amazing divine warmth in it and my grades might not always have been the best, but when I was listening to the lectures, there was so much LIFE in it that engaging the material became an act of prayer. The same goes for the study of ANY science, to include evolutionary science, quantum physics, and cosmology--all those supposedly "troublesome" sciences. Studying these will restore one's sense of wonder and awe at the magnitude of Creation and Creator in a heartbeat.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

(and unfortunately even had to stop with the coffee thanks to stomach problems)

Oh no... Can't drink coffee? You have my sincere sympathies...

Is it the caffeine that's a problem? Or just coffee in and of itself?

Studying these will restore one's sense of wonder and awe at the magnitude of Creation and Creator in a heartbeat.

So will a game at the new Yankee Stadium, but you all knew I would say that too.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

(and unfortunately even had to stop with the coffee thanks to stomach problems)

Oh no... Can't drink coffee? You have my sincere sympathies...

Is it the caffeine that's a problem? Or just coffee in and of itself?

It's the caffeine...even one cup messes really badly with you if you have acid reflux.