Why were the writers so inconsistent while writing Neelix?

[exodus]

In non-Neelix episodes, we here some 'friendly' banter about how Neelix is annoying, his cooking isn't so great, and that gets on peoples nerves.

When we get a Neelix episode, he's the crew favorite little buddy, everybody get's along with him, his cooking is pretty damned good and people couldn't imaging a life without him.

Now, the friendly banter I get up to a point. Amongst friends, we sometimes bash eachother a little. But some of the things said behind his back were pretty harsh.

So why the heck this inconsistency towards Neelix?

I don't find it inconsistent.
They did find him annoying and his cooking bad but they weren't going to be rude to the man's face. Just because someone has qualities or habits you don't like personally, it's no reason to be nasty to them.

 

[R. Star]

In the pilot it was worse, because there he came off as cunning and competent perfectly willing to use people to get what he wanted and stuff. He ever show that level of competence after that?

He had a lot of useful skills that he demonstrated or developed over the course of the series, including engineering knowhow and diplomacy (remember, Janeway appointed him Voyager's official ambassador). He was a good father figure to Naomi. He applied himself diligently to tactical training and could handle himself in a fight. And he did a pretty good job as morale officer a lot of the time. And he did seem to be a skilled cook; it's just that the types of cuisine he was trained to prepare were aimed at a rather different palate than the Starfleet crew had (which kinda reflects poorly on Starfleet; you'd think they'd be more accustomed to exotic cuisine). In most respects, he was good at what he did, he just did it in a way that differed from Starfleet norms. The one thing he was ever really portrayed as less than competent with was relationships. Well, that and self-esteem, but those were related problems.

Uh.. Neelix was a first-class jerk really. Think about it. First episode we see to him, Janeway asks him to lead them to the Ocampa. Instead he lies to Janeway, leads them to the Kazon, starts a fight with them, all to rescue his girlfriend. He then justifies it that since it turned out alright, it doesn't matter. Frankly, I have no idea why Janeway trusted him after that. Good diplomatic skills there...

As for morale officer? He even annoyed Harry Kim in that role, and that takes some effort since he's pretty much the most tolerant guy on the ship. Really he tries to force his values on people. Tuvok's a grand example of this. He constantly is trying to "cheer" him up when doing so is culturally offensive to Vulcans. That Tuvok's values are different from Neelix's is irrelvant, Neelix just has to force his values on everyone.

Really that's his style in everything. He forces himself into any given situation, and then tries to lord it over everyone. Be it the meetings, the bridge or the kitchen. He comes in uninvited, and will either force his opinion on the people, or just critcize what the crew is doing. His behavior in the kitchen is a good example. Telling people they can't use replicator rations? Isn't that the whole purpose of a ration? To use when you want? Up to the person, not the bleeding cook, to decide if they want to save them or use them at once. Everytime someone walks into the kitchen that's not part of the crew he instantly gets territorial as if he was important. Further evidence of this is whenever he tries telling people what they should and shouldn't eat and when they should or shouldn't eat. He's the cook, his job is to make food for people. It's a big ship with rotating sleep schedules. People are going to be eating at all hours.

His possessiveness with Kes is just retarded. This guy should just be thankful he has a woman who seems interested in him. Instead he is controlling to the point of almost abusiveness. It really says a lot about Neelix that he goes after a short-lived naieve race. Heck when they first met, Neelix must have been the most interesting man in her small world. The guy from space... until she just later figured out he was a glorified garbage man. Even for a race that doesn't believe in seperation, after Kes was controlled by that evil emperor alien and broke up with Neelix, she just went along with it. I can't blame her.

As for applying himself diligently to tactical training? This is just another example of him forcing himself into any given situation. And lest we forget... the guy is a draft dodger. Not only did he refuse to serve in his homeworld's military because he thought the war was "wrong" it led to the conquest and subjugation of the said homeworld. Yeah, good material for a security officer. Declaring the war immoral when they conquered your world? I'd call cowardice a better reason.

He's really the nosy neighbor type that just has to poke his nose into everything, without any respect whatsoever for people, their opinions or feelings. He was right and everyone should listen to him for their own good in his deluded world.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

In non-Neelix episodes, we here some 'friendly' banter about how Neelix is annoying, his cooking isn't so great, and that gets on peoples nerves.

When we get a Neelix episode, he's the crew favorite little buddy, everybody get's along with him, his cooking is pretty damned good and people couldn't imaging a life without him.

Now, the friendly banter I get up to a point. Amongst friends, we sometimes bash eachother a little. But some of the things said behind his back were pretty harsh.

So why the heck this inconsistency towards Neelix?

I don't find it inconsistent.
They did find him annoying and his cooking bad but they weren't going to be rude to the man's face. Just because someone has qualities or habits you don't like personally, it's no reason to be nasty to them.

Heck I find most of my friends very annoying.

 

[exodus]

In the pilot it was worse, because there he came off as cunning and competent perfectly willing to use people to get what he wanted and stuff. He ever show that level of competence after that?

He had a lot of useful skills that he demonstrated or developed over the course of the series, including engineering knowhow and diplomacy (remember, Janeway appointed him Voyager's official ambassador). He was a good father figure to Naomi. He applied himself diligently to tactical training and could handle himself in a fight. And he did a pretty good job as morale officer a lot of the time. And he did seem to be a skilled cook; it's just that the types of cuisine he was trained to prepare were aimed at a rather different palate than the Starfleet crew had (which kinda reflects poorly on Starfleet; you'd think they'd be more accustomed to exotic cuisine). In most respects, he was good at what he did, he just did it in a way that differed from Starfleet norms. The one thing he was ever really portrayed as less than competent with was relationships. Well, that and self-esteem, but those were related problems.

Uh.. Neelix was a first-class jerk really. Think about it. First episode we see to him, Janeway asks him to lead them to the Ocampa. Instead he lies to Janeway, leads them to the Kazon, starts a fight with them, all to rescue his girlfriend. He then justifies it that since it turned out alright, it doesn't matter. Frankly, I have no idea why Janeway trusted him after that. Good diplomatic skills there...

As for morale officer? He even annoyed Harry Kim in that role, and that takes some effort since he's pretty much the most tolerant guy on the ship. Really he tries to force his values on people. Tuvok's a grand example of this. He constantly is trying to "cheer" him up when doing so is culturally offensive to Vulcans. That Tuvok's values are different from Neelix's is irrelvant, Neelix just has to force his values on everyone.

Really that's his style in everything. He forces himself into any given situation, and then tries to lord it over everyone. Be it the meetings, the bridge or the kitchen. He comes in uninvited, and will either force his opinion on the people, or just critcize what the crew is doing. His behavior in the kitchen is a good example. Telling people they can't use replicator rations? Isn't that the whole purpose of a ration? To use when you want? Up to the person, not the bleeding cook, to decide if they want to save them or use them at once. Everytime someone walks into the kitchen that's not part of the crew he instantly gets territorial as if he was important. Further evidence of this is whenever he tries telling people what they should and shouldn't eat and when they should or shouldn't eat. He's the cook, his job is to make food for people. It's a big ship with rotating sleep schedules. People are going to be eating at all hours.

His possessiveness with Kes is just retarded. This guy should just be thankful he has a woman who seems interested in him. Instead he is controlling to the point of almost abusiveness. It really says a lot about Neelix that he goes after a short-lived naieve race. Heck when they first met, Neelix must have been the most interesting man in her small world. The guy from space... until she just later figured out he was a glorified garbage man. Even for a race that doesn't believe in seperation, after Kes was controlled by that evil emperor alien and broke up with Neelix, she just went along with it. I can't blame her.

As for applying himself diligently to tactical training? This is just another example of him forcing himself into any given situation. And lest we forget... the guy is a draft dodger. Not only did he refuse to serve in his homeworld's military because he thought the war was "wrong" it led to the conquest and subjugation of the said homeworld. Yeah, good material for a security officer. Declaring the war immoral when they conquered your world? I'd call cowardice a better reason.

He's really the nosy neighbor type that just has to poke his nose into everything, without any respect whatsoever for people, their opinions or feelings. He was right and everyone should listen to him for their own good in his deluded world.

This was never the impression I got from the character at all. I saw a man that had lost EVERYTHING in his life, who was left homeless and lonely for most of his life. I saw someone so desperate not to be alone again, he do anything his his power to try and be useful. He was dirty, smelly and living in garbage when we meet him. Who in their right mind wouldn't want to go back to that? Who among us living like that wouldn't do everything to the point of being annoying just to keep a roof over our heads and food in our belly? It's also stupid to blame Neelix for the what happened to his planet. Whether he joined the army or not, what exactly could he have done against a weapon of mass destruction? The Talaxians were going to get wiped out regardless of whether he was there or not. Honestly, I just see a critique of the character without giving any thought or insight into what made him that way and that nobody deserves a chance to prove themselves due to mistakes in their past. I always thought Trek was about understanding and embracing differences, not looking down on those because they are.

 

[Christopher]

Uh.. Neelix was a first-class jerk really. Think about it. First episode we see to him, Janeway asks him to lead them to the Ocampa. Instead he lies to Janeway, leads them to the Kazon, starts a fight with them, all to rescue his girlfriend. He then justifies it that since it turned out alright, it doesn't matter. Frankly, I have no idea why Janeway trusted him after that.

Well, first off, Kes was an Ocampa, so technically he was doing what he said. And second, he only misled them to save the woman he loved from slavery and torture. Any decent person would cut him some slack, especially after spending two minutes with Kes and recognizing just how much she was worth it.

Really he tries to force his values on people. Tuvok's a grand example of this. He constantly is trying to "cheer" him up when doing so is culturally offensive to Vulcans. That Tuvok's values are different from Neelix's is irrelvant, Neelix just has to force his values on everyone.

Which is really no worse than the way Vulcans routinely criticize and judge everyone else for not behaving logically or controlling their emotions.

His behavior in the kitchen is a good example. Telling people they can't use replicator rations? Isn't that the whole purpose of a ration? To use when you want? Up to the person, not the bleeding cook, to decide if they want to save them or use them at once.

Uhh, no, that's kind of the opposite of the purpose of a ration. A ration is a limited amount of something scarce. They only had a finite amount of energy available for the replicators, so the crewmembers were only given finite rations of replicator usage and it was their responsibility to use them sparingly, i.e. not to use them whenever they wanted. By offering (not imposing) an alternative source of food for the crew, Neelix helped save vital resources and served the good of the entire ship. By encouraging (not forcing) people to eat his cooking rather than expend their limited rations, he encouraged them to be responsible to their ship and their crewmates rather than being selfish and wasteful. Which was a valuable thing to do under the circumstances.

His possessiveness with Kes is just retarded. This guy should just be thankful he has a woman who seems interested in him. Instead he is controlling to the point of almost abusiveness.

Nobody's saying Neelix wasn't a flawed and damaged individual. That's the whole thing that makes him such a rich and complicated character. He was one of the few characters on the show who could really screw up and be selfish and make serious mistakes, and that made him interesting. But once you understood the deep tragedies in his past, you could understand why he was such a mess emotionally and why his insecurities undermined his relationships.

And lest we forget... the guy is a draft dodger. Not only did he refuse to serve in his homeworld's military because he thought the war was "wrong" it led to the conquest and subjugation of the said homeworld. Yeah, good material for a security officer. Declaring the war immoral when they conquered your world? I'd call cowardice a better reason.

A character seeking to atone for the great mistakes of his past is more interesting than a character who's never done anything wrong. It's not as if Tom, B'Elanna, and Seven didn't have things in their own pasts that they were trying to make amends for.

 

[R. Star]

This was never the impression I got from the character at all. I saw a man that had lost EVERYTHING in his life, who was left homeless and lonely for most of his life. I saw someone so desperate not to be alone again, he do anything his his power to try and be useful. He was dirty, smelly and living in garbage when we meet him. Who in their right mind wouldn't want to go back to that? Who among us living like that wouldn't do everything to the point of being annoying just to keep a roof over our heads and food in our belly? It's also stupid to blame Neelix for the what happened to his planet. Whether he joined the army or not, what exactly could he have done against a weapon of mass destruction? The Talaxians were going to get wiped out regardless of whether he was there or not. Honestly, I just see a critique of the character without giving any thought or insight into what made him that way and that nobody deserves a chance to prove themselves due to mistakes in their past. I always thought Trek was about understanding and embracing differences, not looking down on those because they are.

Sure, he was homeless and lonely. That doesn't excuse or justify his possessive, controlling behavior. To quote an extreme behavior, a guy named Hitler had a hard childhood and life.. that doesn't excuse the actions of his life later on. We all chose how we act. I didn't blame him for Talaxia's destruction, I just said he didn't fight in the war because he thought it was "wrong" and the said war he thought was wrong and so immoral led to the subjugation of his homeworld. That's dereliction of duty in the first order, and yes... if I was Tuvok I wouldn't trust him on my security team with a history of fleeing under fire.

Yes, I'm critical of the character. The rest is you putting words on my mouth such as "stupid" and "nobody deserves a second chance." Disagreement isn't a personal affront and you shouldn't treach it as such.

Well, first off, Kes was an Ocampa, so technically he was doing what he said. And second, he only misled them to save the woman he loved from slavery and torture. Any decent person would cut him some slack, especially after spending two minutes with Kes and recognizing just how much she was worth it.

That's splitting hair. He put the whole away team in danger because he lied. If he told the truth, Janeway would have helped him. I have no doubt there.

Which is really no worse than the way Vulcans routinely criticize and judge everyone else for not behaving logically or controlling their emotions.

I never saw a Vulcan going out of their way to annoy someone just because they thought it would be funny. If a Vulcan is critical of someone, it's usually because those said emotions are a problem in the situation they're dealing with.

Uhh, no, that's kind of the opposite of the purpose of a ration. A ration is a limited amount of something scarce. They only had a finite amount of energy available for the replicators, so the crewmembers were only given finite rations of replicator usage and it was their responsibility to use them sparingly, i.e. not to use them whenever they wanted. By offering (not imposing) an alternative source of food for the crew, Neelix helped save vital resources and served the good of the entire ship. By encouraging (not forcing) people to eat his cooking rather than expend their limited rations, he encouraged them to be responsible to their ship and their crewmates rather than being selfish and wasteful. Which was a valuable thing to do under the circumstances.

It's a RATION. The seperation of resources has already been done. Each crewmember gets x amount of energy to use how they want per week/month/whatever. The responsibility didn't lie on the crewmen using them. The responsibility was on the command staff who rationed them to begin with. Being critical of people for using their ration is just dumb. They can decide how they want to use their one replicated meal how they want. If they use it now, they have to wait until the next period to get another one. Neelix had no place to tell people how they should use, what is in essence their own property. Honestly it just always struck me as the territoral/jealousy thing. They weren't eating his food and he was offended. And yes, he did impose his opinion on people. From Janeway who wanted coffee, to the guy in the background on multiple occassions. If he's really so worried about energy rationing he should bring it up with Janeway when he barges in on the next meeting.

Nobody's saying Neelix wasn't a flawed and damaged individual. That's the whole thing that makes him such a rich and complicated character. He was one of the few characters on the show who could really screw up and be selfish and make serious mistakes, and that made him interesting. But once you understood the deep tragedies in his past, you could understand why he was such a mess emotionally and why his insecurities undermined his relationships.

I'll agree on this point. I actively didn't like the character and he annoyed me, but you had to feel for him in an episode like Fair Trade.

A character seeking to atone for the great mistakes of his past is more interesting than a character who's never done anything wrong. It's not as if Tom, B'Elanna, and Seven didn't have things in their own pasts that they were trying to make amends for.

I have no problems with the character's past, so much the character's traits. Flawed characters are more interesting. Annoying ones aren't. And not quite fair to include Seven. Everyone else had a choice. She didn't.

 

[sonak]

I would argue that Neelix was one of the more consistent characters. Jack-of-all trades, resourceful extrovert who could get on your nerves with his good cheer and way of pushing himself on you or situations where he didn't belong.


Now Chakotay and Janeway, there were some inconsistent characters.

 

[R. Star]

I would argue that Neelix was one of the more consistent characters. Jack-of-all trades, resourceful extrovert who could get on your nerves with his good cheer and way of pushing himself on you or situations where he didn't belong.


Now Chakotay and Janeway, there were some inconsistent characters.

I'll agree with the point of Chakotay and Janeway.

Janeway in Alliances... "We must never ally with thugs, and stay true to our Federation values no matter the cost!"
Janeway in Scorpion... "We must ally with the Borg and help them defeat another species in a war to get what we want!"

Janeway in Phage... "Even though you stole my crewman's lungs, I'm not going to do anything more than give you a stern lecture because we're more evolved than that"
Janeway in Equinox... "I'm going to kill you if you if you don't tell me how to find your captain so I can kill him for betraying the Federation's principles."

Janeway in Meld... "You killed someone Mr Suder... we don't tolerate that here... go to your room!"
Janeway in Tuvix... "I'm going to kill you to restore Tuvok and Neelix. It isn't your life and you don't have a choice."

Chakotay suffered from the problem, not so much of being inconsistent as not being fleshed out at all. He's a native American Indian... so instead of giving him a tribe and culture, they just use every concievable Indian stereotype on him. Otherwise he's just there to smile and nod at Janeway's orders because they had to have a first officer. It's funny you can always tell when they're on a holodeck/alternate reality because Chakotay is amazingly more lifelike.

 

[Christopher]

Good grief, you're comparing Neelix to Hitler? And you expect anyone to take you seriously enough to be willing to continue the conversation? I'm done here. You just brought a bazooka to a game of dodge ball, and I'm taking my ball and going home.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well you got to remember that there's temporally speaking more than one Hitler.

Despite what was really going on, before Poland, globally he was very, very, very popular.

 

[Lynx]

I don't think they were that inconsistent when they wrote about Neelix. I think they actually managed pretty good with him.

Remember that Neelix was a very complex character. His background story reveals some real tragic events in his past to which he tried to compensate by trying to be as friendly and helpful to anyone he encountered. On the other hand, he also had some dark sides. He was (or is) self-possessed, jealous and his eagerness to please could easily become annoying.

I think that the comments on Neelix's back may have been all about how his crewmates regarded him. I think many of them did find him annoying sometimes and they probably hated his food. On the other hand, I think they felt sorry for him in many ways and actually appreciated his will to help the crew and for showing support to anyone in trouble. Or to make it short: They found him annoying sometimes but still liked him.

So their attitude aren't as inconsistent as it first might seem.

 

[R. Star]

Good grief, you're comparing Neelix to Hitler? And you expect anyone to take you seriously enough to be willing to continue the conversation? I'm done here. You just brought a bazooka to a game of dodge ball, and I'm taking my ball and going home.

No, I was citing an extreme example, as to make a simple anology. One which you clearly missed the context of. That the experiences of a childhood may shape and devolop a person, but don't excuse their actions as an adult by default.

 

[Timewalker]

Actually, I think the writers handled Neelix realistically. Which of us doesn't know somebody who has done bad things but wants to make up for them? Somebody who has been jealous/possessive of a significant other? Somebody outgoing, but it's at least partly a cover for low self-esteem? Somebody we tend to take for granted until he/she isn't there or finally says, "Enough, I'm not taking this anymore!" and tells us off?

Forget the weird alien makeup and abominable taste in fashion. It's what's inside that matters - something Star Trek has taught ever since the beginning of TOS.

IDIC, people. And don't judge a book/living being by its cover.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Compared to what they had Corrin Nemic wearing on Parker Lewis Can't Lose at almost the same time, Neelix was a little bland.

How many suits did Neelix have?

Were there a few duplicates, were they washing it constantly? it's just hardly flair if Neelix is in the same suit every day, but maybe he considered "that" suit to be a uniform and that if he changed his clothes it would scare the humans who never seemed to change their clothes?

Quark had dozens of suits because the DS9 wardrobe department knew that he wanted to keep looking pretty and special.

 

[The Overlord]

I don't think they were that inconsistent when they wrote about Neelix. I think they actually managed pretty good with him.

Remember that Neelix was a very complex character. His background story reveals some real tragic events in his past to which he tried to compensate by trying to be as friendly and helpful to anyone he encountered. On the other hand, he also had some dark sides. He was (or is) self-possessed, jealous and his eagerness to please could easily become annoying.

I think that the comments on Neelix's back may have been all about how his crewmates regarded him. I think many of them did find him annoying sometimes and they probably hated his food. On the other hand, I think they felt sorry for him in many ways and actually appreciated his will to help the crew and for showing support to anyone in trouble. Or to make it short: They found him annoying sometimes but still liked him.

So their attitude aren't as inconsistent as it first might seem.

Except there are many episodes where Neelix acts like a jerk or an idiot for no good reason. Its why sfdebris usually has a stupid Neelix moment in almost all of his reviews of Voyager.

Neelix acted like a jealous psychopath and attacked Tom Paris for no reason in Parturition, almost destroyed Voyager with cheese in Learn Curve, got Ensign Hogan killed in Basics part II due to his massive incompetence and those are just some of the examples of him screwing up. He is a threat to himself and everyone on board the ship, his back story doesn't even begin to justify his incompetence and boorish attitude.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Tom was on the record as having a huge boner directed at Kes.

Neelix had every right to be defensive and territorial over some jerk trying to get under his girls skirt.

As long as he's subtle about it and doesn't scare the girl off.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Plus don't forget Tom is a rogue and licentious so he needs to protect her.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Push comes to shove Neelix needs a stiff drink and cry, to talk himself into shoving a baby into Kes, meanwhile Tom seemed to have gone to enough birthing classes to fake it as a midwife when she was ready to push her Paris out in a less than stellar situation.

 

[R. Star]

Tom was on the record as having a huge boner directed at Kes.

Neelix had every right to be defensive and territorial over some jerk trying to get under his girls skirt.

As long as he's subtle about it and doesn't scare the girl off.

As long... Neelix, I'll just be nice and say he isn't subtle. At all. He's in your face about everything.

Really, it's quite telling that he managed to drive Kes away. Kes, who is an Ocampa and finds seperation a cultural taboo. Granted it was the evil autarch possession that actually did it, she did go along with it afterwards.

Thankfully though Tom and Kes didn't happen. Say nothing of the fact that Tom was quite blatantly hitting on a three year old, we would have been introduce to the awkwardness of Harry being Tom's son-in-law.

 

[Guy Gardener]

We don't know how, why or when they broke up.

#310 Warlord Tieran breaks up with Neelix.
#311 The Q and the Grey
#312 Macrocosm
#313 Fair Trade Neelix episode. if they were together he should have consulted her about everything he got up to with Wixiban and his feelings of uselessness would have been clearer in the episode if it had been mentioned that Kes had just dumped him, but it wasn't.
#314 Alter Ego
#315 Coda
#316 Blood Fever Tom almost declares his love for B'Elanna.
#317 Unity
#318 Darkling Kes goes on a date with not-Neelix.