Why were so many characters on Voyager underdeveloped?

[fish11111111111]

The problem for me was partially the characters / development, but partially the cast.

In DS9 difficult to take to characters really grew on me through the strength of the writing and some great performances - i.e. Sisko, Kira and Odo. Even supporting characters like Garak and Rom came into their own.

In Voyager, Janeway, Tuvok, Torres and Neelix ended the series just as unlikeable as when it started, and the majority of the rest of the cast were just making up the numbers.

Paris and Seven were OK, Chakotay could have been interesting but really wasn't, Kes was insipid and Harry was bland. The only character I really liked was the Doctor...

I do agree that the doctor is funny ,,,, and chakotay is a very interesting character as well maybe it was an inspiring as Harry but he was bland I do agree there,, and Seven is very interesting character as well,,, Sisko Cara and Odo,, are very supportive characters have very strong,,, Garak and Rom honestly came their own characters,,, in DS9 but even Voyager's characters are pretty inspiring as well with all due honesty,., From the beginning of Star Trek,,, to the ending of Star Trek,, and all the things are in between,,, they all have a place,,, In thier acting skill,..

 

[exodus]

The problem for me was partially the characters / development, but partially the cast.

In DS9 difficult to take to characters really grew on me through the strength of the writing and some great performances - i.e. Sisko, Kira and Odo. Even supporting characters like Garak and Rom came into their own.

IMO honestly, I still find characters like Torres and Janeway more believable than the the development they gave Garak or Rom. Outside the context of DS9, they're cliches. A trained assassin from birth suddenly has ethics and morals to help those he grew up hating to help win the war? A idiot that by relation becomes the leader of his entire race? Development or not, that type of stuff is never going to happen outside fiction. While entertaining, the paths their lives took are complete B.S. Torres, Neelix and Janeway are much more realistic because personal and emotional issues usually are a life long battle you learn to deal with on a daily basis and that life continues without some great reward.

 

[Gotham Central]

Funny how DS9 did a better job developing its guest characters than VOY did with its primaries.

DS9's guest characters were powerful religious icons, powerful warlords, former spies, etc. They were inherently more interesting characters to begin with.

Excuse me but NOG, was one of the best developed characters in all of Trek and his arc has him going from loser trouble maker hanging out on the Promenade and nephew of Quark to being the first Ferengi in Starfleet and an invaluable member of the crew. He goes from nothing to cadet, to ensign to Lieutenant in 7 seven years. Thats more development than Harry Kim and Nog was NEVER a member of the main cast.

Morn, a character that never spoke, actually got character development and got to play an important role during the war.

Thats called having excellent writers that actually understand and want to work with the cast of characters that they have.

Voyager could have done the same thing. The Maquis were rogues that we know also included mercenaries and all types of interesting folks. Hell, the Enterprise, the flagship of the Federation gave us Barckly...a holoaddict with social dysfunctions.

Look at the characters that they COULD have used...

Carey...who disappears at the end of season one only to reappear and be killed off 6 years later (which was downright insulting)
The Equinox crew
The uncooperative Maquis
The misfits

essentially they could have done ANYTHING other than what they chose to do...which was to down play most of the main cast and largely avoid secondary characters.

Whats really BIZZARE is that they did that and then had the nerve to do that stupid Ensign Lindsay Ballard episode later on...about a supposedly beloved member of the crew that "dies" yet mysteriously turns up and reignites a relationship with Harry Kim. Imagine how interesting or dramatic that episode would have been had it featured a character that we'd ACTUALLY SEEN BEFORE!!!! I consider this episode a prime example of Voyager epic fail...a story that should have been more emotional but wasn't because the writers were lazy all along.

 

[Anwar]

I never found Nog all that interesting, or that developed. Take him out of the show and nothing would have been any different.

And DS9 had the Dominion War as a big plot device to frame plots around and use to develop characters, while VOY had nothing like that to drive the plot because the premise wouldn't allow it.

 

[exodus]

I never found Nog all that interesting, or that developed. Take him out of the show and nothing would have been any different.

I loved Nog but yes, I still agree.
If he was developed or not, his role didn't effect the show in anyway that would have made a difference.
Morn got a story simply because they had to create stories to stretch the season out.
While the writers were spending time developing the secondary cast, they completely and admittedly dropped the ball on developing a main cast member- Jake.

 

[Gotham Central]

I never found Nog all that interesting, or that developed. Take him out of the show and nothing would have been any different.

I loved Nog but yes, I still agree.
If he was developed or not, his role didn't effect the show in anyway that would have made a difference.
Morn got a story simply because they had to create stories to stretch the season out.
While the writers were spending time developing the secondary cast, they completely and admittedly dropped the ball on developing a main cast member- Jake.

The question under discussion was NOT whether or not the show pivoted on the importance of any one character. It is about the level of development of the characters. In terms of pure character development, Nog was one of the most developed characters in all of Trek. Never mind that Nog was prominently featured in some of the most important episodes of the series...including the episode that first introduces the Dominion.

 

[exodus]

Funny how DS9 did a better job developing its guest characters than VOY did with its primaries.

DS9's guest characters were powerful religious icons, powerful warlords, former spies, etc. They were inherently more interesting characters to begin with.

Excuse me but NOG, was one of the best developed characters in all of Trek and his arc has him going from loser trouble maker hanging out on the Promenade and nephew of Quark to being the first Ferengi in Starfleet and an invaluable member of the crew. He goes from nothing to cadet, to ensign to Lieutenant in 7 seven years. Thats more development than Harry Kim and Nog was NEVER a member of the main cast.

Morn, a character that never spoke, actually got character development and got to play an important role during the war.

Thats called having excellent writers that actually understand and want to work with the cast of characters that they have.

Voyager could have done the same thing. The Maquis were rogues that we know also included mercenaries and all types of interesting folks. Hell, the Enterprise, the flagship of the Federation gave us Barckly...a holoaddict with social dysfunctions.

Look at the characters that they COULD have used...

Carey...who disappears at the end of season one only to reappear and be killed off 6 years later (which was downright insulting)
The Equinox crew
The uncooperative Maquis
The misfits

essentially they could have done ANYTHING other than what they chose to do...which was to down play most of the main cast and largely avoid secondary characters.

Whats really BIZZARE is that they did that and then had the nerve to do that stupid Ensign Lindsay Ballard episode later on...about a supposedly beloved member of the crew that "dies" yet mysteriously turns up and reignites a relationship with Harry Kim. Imagine how interesting or dramatic that episode would have been had it featured a character that we'd ACTUALLY SEEN BEFORE!!!! I consider this episode a prime example of Voyager epic fail...a story that should have been more emotional but wasn't because the writers were lazy all along.

If you've got main cast members like Tuvok & Chakotay being underwritten, why would you still turn you're back on actors you're paying top dollar for to focus on characters and actors you're only paying minimum for? Do you think it's fair to Tim Russ & Robert Beltran to be overlooked for lesser actors?

 

[Gotham Central]

I never found Nog all that interesting, or that developed. Take him out of the show and nothing would have been any different.

And DS9 had the Dominion War as a big plot device to frame plots around and use to develop characters, while VOY had nothing like that to drive the plot because the premise wouldn't allow it.

This is your usual cop out. Voyager was supposed to be about a single ship with a divided crew struggling to survive in hostile space while trying to get home. How is that NOT an environment for cultivating interesting characters. How is that less a challenging environment than a war zone? In fact...more than a few Voyager episodes devolved into war situations.

You are just excusing lazy writing.

 

[exodus]

I never found Nog all that interesting, or that developed. Take him out of the show and nothing would have been any different.

I loved Nog but yes, I still agree.
If he was developed or not, his role didn't effect the show in anyway that would have made a difference.
Morn got a story simply because they had to create stories to stretch the season out.
While the writers were spending time developing the secondary cast, they completely and admittedly dropped the ball on developing a main cast member- Jake.

The question under discussion was NOT whether or not the show pivoted on the importance of any one character. It is about the level of development of the characters. In terms of pure character development, Nog was one of the most developed characters in all of Trek. Never mind that Nog was prominently featured in some of the most important episodes of the series...including the episode that first introduces the Dominion.

So what?
Why would you take time on development of a secondary cast if you can't devote time and development to the main cast? DS9 could develope others because they had already taken the time to flesh out the main cast before the secondary.

 

[Gotham Central]

DS9's guest characters were powerful religious icons, powerful warlords, former spies, etc. They were inherently more interesting characters to begin with.

Excuse me but NOG, was one of the best developed characters in all of Trek and his arc has him going from loser trouble maker hanging out on the Promenade and nephew of Quark to being the first Ferengi in Starfleet and an invaluable member of the crew. He goes from nothing to cadet, to ensign to Lieutenant in 7 seven years. Thats more development than Harry Kim and Nog was NEVER a member of the main cast.

Morn, a character that never spoke, actually got character development and got to play an important role during the war.

Thats called having excellent writers that actually understand and want to work with the cast of characters that they have.

Voyager could have done the same thing. The Maquis were rogues that we know also included mercenaries and all types of interesting folks. Hell, the Enterprise, the flagship of the Federation gave us Barckly...a holoaddict with social dysfunctions.

Look at the characters that they COULD have used...

Carey...who disappears at the end of season one only to reappear and be killed off 6 years later (which was downright insulting)
The Equinox crew
The uncooperative Maquis
The misfits

essentially they could have done ANYTHING other than what they chose to do...which was to down play most of the main cast and largely avoid secondary characters.

Whats really BIZZARE is that they did that and then had the nerve to do that stupid Ensign Lindsay Ballard episode later on...about a supposedly beloved member of the crew that "dies" yet mysteriously turns up and reignites a relationship with Harry Kim. Imagine how interesting or dramatic that episode would have been had it featured a character that we'd ACTUALLY SEEN BEFORE!!!! I consider this episode a prime example of Voyager epic fail...a story that should have been more emotional but wasn't because the writers were lazy all along.

If you've got main cast members like Tuvok & Chakotay being underwritten, why would you still turn you're back on actors you're paying top dollar for to focus on characters and actors you're only paying minimum for? Do you think it's fair to Tim Russ & Robert Beltran to be overlooked for lesser actors?

Your question has merit in as far as it supports my thesis that the writers on Voyager were either incredibly inept or just plain lazy. Neither of which reflects well on the series.

 

[Gotham Central]

I loved Nog but yes, I still agree.
If he was developed or not, his role didn't effect the show in anyway that would have made a difference.
Morn got a story simply because they had to create stories to stretch the season out.
While the writers were spending time developing the secondary cast, they completely and admittedly dropped the ball on developing a main cast member- Jake.

The question under discussion was NOT whether or not the show pivoted on the importance of any one character. It is about the level of development of the characters. In terms of pure character development, Nog was one of the most developed characters in all of Trek. Never mind that Nog was prominently featured in some of the most important episodes of the series...including the episode that first introduces the Dominion.

So what?
Why would you take time on development of a secondary cast if you can't devote time and development to the main cast? DS9 could develope others because they had already taken the time to flesh out the main cast before the secondary.

That is a question of poor leadership and a creatively bankrupt writing/production staff. NOT, as Anwar suggested, a consequence of the situation developed for the series.

 

[exodus]

Excuse me but NOG, was one of the best developed characters in all of Trek and his arc has him going from loser trouble maker hanging out on the Promenade and nephew of Quark to being the first Ferengi in Starfleet and an invaluable member of the crew. He goes from nothing to cadet, to ensign to Lieutenant in 7 seven years. Thats more development than Harry Kim and Nog was NEVER a member of the main cast.

Morn, a character that never spoke, actually got character development and got to play an important role during the war.

Thats called having excellent writers that actually understand and want to work with the cast of characters that they have.

Voyager could have done the same thing. The Maquis were rogues that we know also included mercenaries and all types of interesting folks. Hell, the Enterprise, the flagship of the Federation gave us Barckly...a holoaddict with social dysfunctions.

Look at the characters that they COULD have used...

Carey...who disappears at the end of season one only to reappear and be killed off 6 years later (which was downright insulting)
The Equinox crew
The uncooperative Maquis
The misfits

essentially they could have done ANYTHING other than what they chose to do...which was to down play most of the main cast and largely avoid secondary characters.

Whats really BIZZARE is that they did that and then had the nerve to do that stupid Ensign Lindsay Ballard episode later on...about a supposedly beloved member of the crew that "dies" yet mysteriously turns up and reignites a relationship with Harry Kim. Imagine how interesting or dramatic that episode would have been had it featured a character that we'd ACTUALLY SEEN BEFORE!!!! I consider this episode a prime example of Voyager epic fail...a story that should have been more emotional but wasn't because the writers were lazy all along.

If you've got main cast members like Tuvok & Chakotay being underwritten, why would you still turn you're back on actors you're paying top dollar for to focus on characters and actors you're only paying minimum for? Do you think it's fair to Tim Russ & Robert Beltran to be overlooked for lesser actors?

Your question has merit in as far as it supports my thesis that the writers on Voyager were either incredibly inept or just plain lazy. Neither of which reflects well on the series.

I think it's easy for fans to say this when we weren't part of the behind the scenes process to understand how and why a room full of writers and producers all came to the same conclusion as to the direction the show took.
Everybody says, it's lazying writing but does anyone ever ask, what factors were involved that might not have allowed them more focus on those characters? It's obvious too me something changed the writing style of the show between s1-3 and s4-7 which wasn't lazy writing but rather they were told to change there writing dynamic on the show.

 

[exodus]

The question under discussion was NOT whether or not the show pivoted on the importance of any one character. It is about the level of development of the characters. In terms of pure character development, Nog was one of the most developed characters in all of Trek. Never mind that Nog was prominently featured in some of the most important episodes of the series...including the episode that first introduces the Dominion.

So what?
Why would you take time on development of a secondary cast if you can't devote time and development to the main cast? DS9 could develope others because they had already taken the time to flesh out the main cast before the secondary.

That is a question of poor leadership and a creatively bankrupt writing/production staff. NOT, as Anwar suggested, a consequence of the situation developed for the series.

Why can't it be a little bit of both?
Voyager had several aspects that were against it from the start. I don't believe the blame falls on just one group, everybody that went into creating the show had a part to play in the success or failure of it.

 

[Anwar]

This is your usual cop out. Voyager was supposed to be about a single ship with a divided crew struggling to survive in hostile space while trying to get home.

It was a plot already done in TOS and TNG, and resolved much faster.

How is that NOT an environment for cultivating interesting characters.

If they were the last survivors of their civilization and their survival led to interesting questions on how they as a species and society would go from there, then there's something.

If they were the only hope for that area of space against a powerful invading foe and the survival of the universe was up to them, then there's something.

If they are just a bunch of nobodies in a situation that other crews easily got out of, and they have little to no reason to get involved in any local affairs or any big adventures, then there's not much there.

How is that less a challenging environment than a war zone?

Because then there's something important at stake from their actions, beyond their own unimportant lives.

 

[Relayer1]

I never found Nog all that interesting, or that developed. Take him out of the show and nothing would have been any different.

I loved Nog but yes, I still agree.
If he was developed or not, his role didn't effect the show in anyway that would have made a difference.
Morn got a story simply because they had to create stories to stretch the season out.
While the writers were spending time developing the secondary cast, they completely and admittedly dropped the ball on developing a main cast member- Jake.

It's Only a Paper Moon.

Hologram, supporting Ferengi, superb episode...

 

[Guy Gardener]

Pocket Books made some fake covers fro April fools a decade back.

There was a book all about Morn called "Seven years on that stool almost killed me."

 

[exodus]

I never found Nog all that interesting, or that developed. Take him out of the show and nothing would have been any different.

I loved Nog but yes, I still agree.
If he was developed or not, his role didn't effect the show in anyway that would have made a difference.
Morn got a story simply because they had to create stories to stretch the season out.
While the writers were spending time developing the secondary cast, they completely and admittedly dropped the ball on developing a main cast member- Jake.

It's Only a Paper Moon.

Hologram, supporting Ferengi, superb episode...

Yes it is but it still doesn't effect anything on the show, only the character himself. If it never happened nothing on DS9 would be changed by it, nothing change because it did either.
Nog's development has no effect on the shows theme/plot what so ever. His stories are basically well told filler to stretch out the season.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Um.

DS9 had a larger plot, each of which eventually carried a season and showed the evolution of the entire run. There were important stories toward the larger story and then there was filler.

Voyager didn't have a larger plot. Everything was filler.

If Nogs development is unimportant because it was filler, then everything from Voyager is unimportant because it was all filler inbetween the pilot and the finale. Nothing of consequense happened in between Caretaker and Endgame, except Janeway changing her hair cut, the mobile emitter, Seven swapping out with Kes and the delta Flier, which are all quite superficial.

 

[Anwar]

...Which is why VOY needed a larger plot.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If Voyager had a larger plot it wouldn't be Voyager.

TNG didn't have a larger plot and it was fine.

DS9 was a progression from TNG, and then Voyager was a regression from DS9, which would only be justifiable if DS9 was a HUGE failure.

Which it sort of was.