Actually, not "everyone" does. I've told you a million times not to exaggerate.
Why was the Enterprise so easily conquered in Rascals?
- Thread starter The Overlord
- Start date
Well, that sort of takes us to the issue of what would have worked better.
It stands to reason that the Federation's longtime enemies would have ships capable of going toe-to-toe with a Galaxy, and that only the less frequent foes would have ships that are inferior or needlessly superior. So, reuse of any single enemy capital ship in action against the Enterprise would be plausible as such - and reuse of any two enemy capital ships in such action should logically guarantee victory to the enemy.
It's just that there are relatively few stock footage battles where our heroes would face multiple enemy capital ships, because of this very logic: such battles should end in hero defeat, and the storylines seldom work if our heroes are defeated.
Stock footage of single enemy ships is more abundant, and a big Ferengi, Klingon or Romulan ship could plausibly have defeated the Enterprise in battle, too. But less plausibly that two such ships. So "Yesterday's Enterprise", a very rare piece of multiship action, does defend its status as a credible choice here.
Twin Romulan foes from "The Defector" should have worked fine, too: two D'deridex Warbirds decloaking should make Riker capitulate at once, without firing a shot, as he would have no hope of winning. But would Romulans work as the straight men in "Rascals"?
The poor choice is not that of having two Klingon behemoths defeat the Enterprise in battle. It is that of showing a battle in the first place, as the exchange of fire is so embarrassingly one-sided. Much better if the foes get the drop on our heroes and preempt a firefight...
Romulans did work rather well as the comical foils in "Message in a Bottle". So the posturing Warbird footage from "The Defector" would have been my prime choice here!
Timo Saloniemi
A bit difficult to believe the Romulans would sell their ships, or allow them to be stolen. The less disciplined Klingons could well sell outdated stuff, though.
But two Ferengi capital ships would definitely have been convincing here...
...Especially if the Ferengi, at this point already almost (and later very explicitly) established as skilled pirates, would have had some fancy special weapons for disabling and capturing an unprepared enemy. Say, what would have happened had that flash-wave from "The Last Outpost" hit an unshielded Enterprise?
The big minus with that is that there's no footage of a multiple D'Kora attack. But there would have been footage of individual Ferengi ships maneuvering and firing, and footage of single ships was enough to convince us that multiple Romulans were attacking the Enterprise in "The Deadly Years"...
Timo Saloniemi
But two Ferengi capital ships would definitely have been convincing here...
...Especially if the Ferengi, at this point already almost (and later very explicitly) established as skilled pirates, would have had some fancy special weapons for disabling and capturing an unprepared enemy. Say, what would have happened had that flash-wave from "The Last Outpost" hit an unshielded Enterprise?
The big minus with that is that there's no footage of a multiple D'Kora attack. But there would have been footage of individual Ferengi ships maneuvering and firing, and footage of single ships was enough to convince us that multiple Romulans were attacking the Enterprise in "The Deadly Years"...
Timo Saloniemi
^ sorry i forgot to mention that one example i gave was during Voyager's pilot episode. It was when the away team beamed down on Kes' planet. Pathetic is the word to describe that scene.
Pathetic? How so? 
The heroes beam down well armed and provisioned, in a "tactical formation" facing outward, far away from potential ambush sites. This despite Neelix failing to warn them about the full extent of the threat down below. One of the better beam-downs into hostile, unreconnoitered territory in Trek history.
Or did you mean that "Rascals" is especially pathetic in comparison with that one?
Timo Saloniemi
The heroes beam down well armed and provisioned, in a "tactical formation" facing outward, far away from potential ambush sites. This despite Neelix failing to warn them about the full extent of the threat down below. One of the better beam-downs into hostile, unreconnoitered territory in Trek history.
Or did you mean that "Rascals" is especially pathetic in comparison with that one?
Timo Saloniemi
You know, I remembered Voyager's pilot episode differently. Even tho the Away Team transported correctly, the Kazon took their weapons away so easily.
There are more examples of pathetic tactics. I'll have to watch all of the series again. A hard task. But I'm up for the challenge.
There are more examples of pathetic tactics. I'll have to watch all of the series again. A hard task. But I'm up for the challenge.
They say that budget limitations don't matter in Trek and that its the stories and the performances that matter, but I'm sorry you have to hold this episode up as an example against that argument.
There were two contrasting issues here
1) The need for it to be funny, so therefore the Ferengi MUST be used
2) The lack of budget meaning they couldn't film any Ferengi ships but Hey, we've got the Klingon ship footage from Yesterday's Enterprise, lets throw in a line into the script about the Ferengi aquiring some BOP's
No, just NO!
What should've happened was the writers decided that either the Klingons were comical and stupid enough to carry the episode and being outsmarted by kids or they should've diverted some money to filming some new Ferengi ship shots, maybe splicing in some battle footage from Peak Performance to limit the damage on that front.
To have Ferengi's not only take down the Enterprise-D but also implied that they've outsmarted (!) some Klingons to steal their ships (yet were still dumb enough to be outsmarted by children at the end of the ep) just plainly doesn't work.
OR, are we to believe they bested the Klingons in honourable combat?
OR had they recently been reading up on Kirk's mission logs and tricked all the klingons to beam over to their ship and then self destructed it?
Maybe they should've just junked the entire episode instead of the half-hearted POS we did get.....
There were two contrasting issues here
1) The need for it to be funny, so therefore the Ferengi MUST be used
2) The lack of budget meaning they couldn't film any Ferengi ships but Hey, we've got the Klingon ship footage from Yesterday's Enterprise, lets throw in a line into the script about the Ferengi aquiring some BOP's
No, just NO!
What should've happened was the writers decided that either the Klingons were comical and stupid enough to carry the episode and being outsmarted by kids or they should've diverted some money to filming some new Ferengi ship shots, maybe splicing in some battle footage from Peak Performance to limit the damage on that front.
To have Ferengi's not only take down the Enterprise-D but also implied that they've outsmarted (!) some Klingons to steal their ships (yet were still dumb enough to be outsmarted by children at the end of the ep) just plainly doesn't work.
OR, are we to believe they bested the Klingons in honourable combat?
OR had they recently been reading up on Kirk's mission logs and tricked all the klingons to beam over to their ship and then self destructed it?
Maybe they should've just junked the entire episode instead of the half-hearted POS we did get.....
The entire story element of the Ferengi taking over the Enterprise was a gimmick to give the "children" a chance to shine. So why not also explain the takeover through the use of a gimmick?
The chief Ferengi adversary Bok used gimmicks in both of his attacks against Picard - he had a thought-maker and a super-transporter. The Ferengi here could have had a machine, substance or technique that renders all our heroes unconscious when they innocently try to help an apparent traveler-in-distress. Cheap and effective, done with minimal VFX or SFX, and easily written to incorporate a fatal weakness that makes the weapon useless against a prepared starship.
As mentioned, the technique could even have been one already introduced: the mysterious flash-wave thing from "The Last Outpost" could have been used, but this time against an unprepared and unshielded Enterprise. There would have been plenty of stock footage of a Ferengi ship flying close to the hero ship, maneuvering in front of her, and then firing this superweapon, plus subsequent shots of the Ferengi ship flying in formation with the captured Starfleet vessel. Just leave out / change the planet in the background of the weapon-firing shots.
Timo Saloniemi
The chief Ferengi adversary Bok used gimmicks in both of his attacks against Picard - he had a thought-maker and a super-transporter. The Ferengi here could have had a machine, substance or technique that renders all our heroes unconscious when they innocently try to help an apparent traveler-in-distress. Cheap and effective, done with minimal VFX or SFX, and easily written to incorporate a fatal weakness that makes the weapon useless against a prepared starship.
As mentioned, the technique could even have been one already introduced: the mysterious flash-wave thing from "The Last Outpost" could have been used, but this time against an unprepared and unshielded Enterprise. There would have been plenty of stock footage of a Ferengi ship flying close to the hero ship, maneuvering in front of her, and then firing this superweapon, plus subsequent shots of the Ferengi ship flying in formation with the captured Starfleet vessel. Just leave out / change the planet in the background of the weapon-firing shots.
Timo Saloniemi
Yeah, having the Enterprise hit a "super hidden space mine" or something that disables everything including their hand weapons would work and explain away how they easily take over the whole ship and everyone on it.
Wouldn't even have to ask why Ferengi privateers are using Klingon ships then.
Wouldn't even have to ask why Ferengi privateers are using Klingon ships then.
Drago-Kazov
Fleet Captain
Which episode was that?Pretty much. I love that later on in DS9 Odo makes fun of Worf for letting the Ferengi so easily take it over when he question's Odo's faults as security chief.
I think the problem is that, based on what is seen in Star Trek, Federation commanders are slow to react in a battle. For a single shot to occur, the commander has to plot a course or, or for simplicity, announce a battle strategy, another officer has to target the enemy, and than the ship has to fire. While the commander is fussing with the computer to plan a movement, the ship is being hit multiple times. This slowness explains how the Federation can lose in a war to the Klingons or to the Dominion or even to the Ferengi. The only time that the Federation seems to have an edge is when the enemy has antiquated equipment.
I don't think the Enterprise-D ever succeeded in a battle. (I could be wrong.) Either the crew employed a strategy that reduced the ship to a distraction to achieve a goal or the starship was forced to withdraw from the battlefield. Now, this is the most advanced ship in the fleet, and she is proven time and again to be made of paper-mache. The most egregious example is when the Bozeman collided with the warp nacelle, and this collision resulted in the destruction of the starship. Huh? The Reliant loses a nacelle, and she is still relatively intact. The Enterprise loses a nacelle, and boom!
When I think about the Enterprise, I think this cartoon expresses my opinion of the ship:
http://epantiras.deviantart.com/gallery/31228611?offset=144#/d5ccmn3
I don't think the Enterprise-D ever succeeded in a battle. (I could be wrong.) Either the crew employed a strategy that reduced the ship to a distraction to achieve a goal or the starship was forced to withdraw from the battlefield. Now, this is the most advanced ship in the fleet, and she is proven time and again to be made of paper-mache. The most egregious example is when the Bozeman collided with the warp nacelle, and this collision resulted in the destruction of the starship. Huh? The Reliant loses a nacelle, and she is still relatively intact. The Enterprise loses a nacelle, and boom!
When I think about the Enterprise, I think this cartoon expresses my opinion of the ship:
^^
Completely agree, Throwback. I was about to open a new thread about Starfleet's Slow Combat tactics.
Completely agree, Throwback. I was about to open a new thread about Starfleet's Slow Combat tactics.
Knight Templar
Commodore
One of the problems was that from a story telling and budget standpoint, it is hard to have the "finest" or "strongest" ship in the fleet (OS & TNG descriptions) and yet within the confines of three quarters of an hour have the ships placed in serious jeopardy.
The Original Series solved these problems more creatively.
The Doomsday Machine, The Changeling- overwhelmingly powerful opponent.
Elaan of Troyius-sabotage
Balance of Terror- old enemy with not one but two brand new pieces of technology.
The Tholian Web-ship not working well due to nature of space it is in.
I think the ST:TNG writers on the other hand tended to get quite lazy in explaining why the Enterprise-D was getting wiped.
Peak Performance was one of the few times it made sense as Picard was not prepared for an actual attack and his weapons had been reset for only mock combat.
The Original Series solved these problems more creatively.
The Doomsday Machine, The Changeling- overwhelmingly powerful opponent.
Elaan of Troyius-sabotage
Balance of Terror- old enemy with not one but two brand new pieces of technology.
The Tholian Web-ship not working well due to nature of space it is in.
I think the ST:TNG writers on the other hand tended to get quite lazy in explaining why the Enterprise-D was getting wiped.
Peak Performance was one of the few times it made sense as Picard was not prepared for an actual attack and his weapons had been reset for only mock combat.
Would have been a completely different episode if it had been Cardassians. Imagine if they'd taken over the ship, and to get the crew to co-operate they threaten to execute the ships children, one by one. Only they actually do execute one of them. Obviously not Picard, but all the other three were basically expendable characters. Certainly would have had a major emotional impact if it had been Keiko, considering Miles O'Brien's history with the Cardassians.
Doubt the TNG writers or Producers would have had the guts to do something like that but it would probably have won an emmy or something.
I think we are also forgetting just how bad the kid playing Picard is.
I realise it must have been pretty hard to cast (and there are probably not a lot of kids wandering around L.A. with an English accent) but all the other kids play the parts well.
A good central performance from the kid could have papered over the cracks in the story.
But there isn't one.
I realise it must have been pretty hard to cast (and there are probably not a lot of kids wandering around L.A. with an English accent) but all the other kids play the parts well.
A good central performance from the kid could have papered over the cracks in the story.
But there isn't one.
Knight Templar
Commodore
But that would go against the ST:TNG tradition of "reset buttons' (it did not just apply to time travel).
Executing the child Keiko would mean you could never have another episode of O'Brien showing "personal growth" by sitting down with Cardassians in a bar and talking about war experiences.
By the way, reportedly the writers felt extremely uncomfortable with the scenes of "child Keiko" and O'Brien because they worried about sexual overtones that were "barely" implied when Keiko reacting to O'Briens discomfort asked " is our marriage over?"
The cast had the flu
We do see exactly that. Picard, Guinan, and Keiko are all wearing baggy, adult-sized outfits in the final transporter scene.
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