Why was the Confederacy of Independent Systems the bad guys...

[Mr. Sin]

Regarding the "Heroes on both sides" thing-the comics actually get into this a bit. There was a story arc recently called "Hero Of The Confederacy".


There's also a deleted scene from the movie where the motivations for the Seperatists are made a bit more clear. It's between Anakin and Padme being captured in the droid factory and the arena scene. Here is the script excerpt:

NT. GEONOSIS, CONFERENCE ROOM - DAY
Count Dooku sits at a large conference table with Padmé on the far side. Anakin stands behind her with four Geonosian guards standing behind him. Jango Fett stands behind Count Dooku, and six Geonosian guards stand behind him.

Padmé
You are holding a Jedi Knight,
Obi-Wan Kenobi. I am formally requesting
you turn him over to me, now.​

Count Dooku
He has been convicted of espionage,
Senator, and will be executed.
In just a few hours, I believe.​

Count Dooku smiles.

Padmé
He is an officer of the Republic.
You can't do that.​

Count Dooku
We don't recognize the Republic here,
Senator, but if Naboo were to join our
Alliance, I could easily hear your plea
for clemency.​

Padmé
And if I don't join your rebellion,
I assume this Jedi with me will also die?​

Count Dooku
I don't wish to make you to join our cause
against your will, Senator, but you are a
rational, honest representative of your
people and I assume you want to do what's
in their best interest. Aren't they fed up with
the corruption, the bureaucrats, the
hypocrisy of it all? Aren't you?
Be honest, Senator.​

Padmé
The ideals are still alive, Count,
even if the institution is failing.​

Count Dooku
You believe in the same ideals
we believe in! The same ideals we
are striving to make prominent.​

Padmé
If what you say is true, you should
stay in the Republic and help Chancellor
Palpatine put things right.​

Count Dooku
The Chancellor means well, M'Lady,
but he is incompetent. He has promised to cut
the bureaucracy, but the bureaucrats are
stronger than ever, no? The Republic
cannot be fixed, M´Lady. It is time to start over.
The democratic process in the Republic
is a sham, no? A shell game played on the
voters. The time will come when that cult
of greed, called the Republic will lose
even the pretext of democracy
and freedom.​

Padmé
I cannot believe that. I know of
your treaties with the Trade Federation,
the Commerce Guilds, and the others,
Count. What is happening here is not
government that has been bought out by
business… it's business becoming government!
I will not forsake all I have honored
and worked for and betray the Republic.​

Count Dooku
Then you will betray your Jedi friends?
Without your cooperation I can do
nothing to stop their execution.​

Padmé
And what about me?
Am I to be executed also?​

Count Dooku
I wouldn't think of such an offense.
But, there are individuals who have a strong
interest in your demise, M'Lady. It has
nothing to do with politics, I'm afraid. It's purely
personal, and they have already paid
great sums to have you assassinated. I'm
sure they will push hard to have you included
in the executions. I'm sorry but, if you are not
going to cooperate, I must turn you over to the
Geonosians for justice. Without your
cooperation, I've done all I
can for you.​

Jango Fett
Take them away.​

 

[Anwar]

That still doesn't really work out: Dooku claims that they want to secede from the Republic due to problems with the bureaucrats but it should be clear to him that the Corporate Executives he's working with would just put themselves in charge of whatever government he wants to create. His partners aren't the type for democracy and are just using this as an excuse to take out their power rivals. Instead of Democrat Advocates vs Corrupt Bureaucrats who impede democracy, it's Corrupt Executives vs Corrupt Bureaucrats over who gets all the control.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Plus, Dooku is clearly a Sith Lord answering to a Sith Lord. Anything he says has to be taken as a possible lie or manipulation.

 

[JediKnightButler]

Regarding the "Heroes on both sides" thing-the comics actually get into this a bit. There was a story arc recently called "Hero Of The Confederacy".


There's also a deleted scene from the movie where the motivations for the Seperatists are made a bit more clear. It's between Anakin and Padme being captured in the droid factory and the arena scene. Here is the script excerpt:

NT. GEONOSIS, CONFERENCE ROOM - DAY
Count Dooku sits at a large conference table with Padmé on the far side. Anakin stands behind her with four Geonosian guards standing behind him. Jango Fett stands behind Count Dooku, and six Geonosian guards stand behind him.

Padmé
You are holding a Jedi Knight,
Obi-Wan Kenobi. I am formally requesting
you turn him over to me, now.​

Count Dooku
He has been convicted of espionage,
Senator, and will be executed.
In just a few hours, I believe.​

Count Dooku smiles.

Padmé
He is an officer of the Republic.
You can't do that.​

Count Dooku
We don't recognize the Republic here,
Senator, but if Naboo were to join our
Alliance, I could easily hear your plea
for clemency.​

Padmé
And if I don't join your rebellion,
I assume this Jedi with me will also die?​

Count Dooku
I don't wish to make you to join our cause
against your will, Senator, but you are a
rational, honest representative of your
people and I assume you want to do what's
in their best interest. Aren't they fed up with
the corruption, the bureaucrats, the
hypocrisy of it all? Aren't you?
Be honest, Senator.​

Padmé
The ideals are still alive, Count,
even if the institution is failing.​

Count Dooku
You believe in the same ideals
we believe in! The same ideals we
are striving to make prominent.​

Padmé
If what you say is true, you should
stay in the Republic and help Chancellor
Palpatine put things right.​

Count Dooku
The Chancellor means well, M'Lady,
but he is incompetent. He has promised to cut
the bureaucracy, but the bureaucrats are
stronger than ever, no? The Republic
cannot be fixed, M´Lady. It is time to start over.
The democratic process in the Republic
is a sham, no? A shell game played on the
voters. The time will come when that cult
of greed, called the Republic will lose
even the pretext of democracy
and freedom.​

Padmé
I cannot believe that. I know of
your treaties with the Trade Federation,
the Commerce Guilds, and the others,
Count. What is happening here is not
government that has been bought out by
business… it's business becoming government!
I will not forsake all I have honored
and worked for and betray the Republic.​

Count Dooku
Then you will betray your Jedi friends?
Without your cooperation I can do
nothing to stop their execution.​

Padmé
And what about me?
Am I to be executed also?​

Count Dooku
I wouldn't think of such an offense.
But, there are individuals who have a strong
interest in your demise, M'Lady. It has
nothing to do with politics, I'm afraid. It's purely
personal, and they have already paid
great sums to have you assassinated. I'm
sure they will push hard to have you included
in the executions. I'm sorry but, if you are not
going to cooperate, I must turn you over to the
Geonosians for justice. Without your
cooperation, I've done all I
can for you.​

Jango Fett
Take them away.​

That scene (almost word for word, I believe) was in the unabridged novelization of AOTC. Shame it was cut from the movie. That is actually a pretty good scene IMHO.

 

[David cgc]

Plus, Dooku is clearly a Sith Lord answering to a Sith Lord. Anything he says has to be taken as a possible lie or manipulation.

Sure, it's obvious that Dooku didn't believe a word of what he was saying, but that doesn't mean there weren't patriots, dupes, and true believers who followed those rationales earnestly.

 

[Anwar]

But so far the biggest figures of the CIS were folks like Asajji Ventress, Durge and Grievous. They were mostly mercenaries and assassins or warlords, no real patriots of democracy there.

That their leadership was comprised of Corporate figures they knew had purely economic problems with the Bureaucrats (as in, they wanted more power for THEMSELVES) should've tipped them off something wasn't right.

 

[Gaith]

91 Reasons to Hate Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

Reason #1
War! What Is It Good For
The opening crawl for Revenge of the Sith stays true to the Star Wars style by being pretty dreadful. The first paragraph is as follows:

War! The Republic is crumbling under attacks by the ruthless Sith Lord, Count Dooku. There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere.​

I won't bore you with the remaining two paragraphs as I feel that the first paragraph sets the tone nicely enough. There are heroes on both sides. Who exactly are the heroes on the other side? Count Dooku? Nute Gunray? Presumably the other side's hero was that battle droid that said "Roger, roger!"

 

[Mr. Sin]

One thing that's always bugged me is that initially, Nute and co. join Dooku because they were 'betrayed by Darth Sidious'.

However, it's clear in ROTS that they now serve Darth Sidious (Although they are unaware he is Palpatine).


According to some of the EU stuff (Visual dictionary), however, Dooku apparentally revealed himself as a Sith lord, and Sidious as his master, to the seperatists after Geonosis.

 

[Anwar]

Gunray showed himself to be a coward in Phantom Menace, so he probably figured he was in too deep by that point and needed the others to continue the war and avoid defeat.

 

[Kegg]

That Dooku scene was rather nice. One of the better scenes in Attack of the Clones was him laying the truth on the table about a sith influence. It was a trifle twisty and had better dialogue than usual and also had Christopher Lee talking. I would have cut one of the romantic scenes for that scene, but then, what do I know?

Sure, it's obvious that Dooku didn't believe a word of what he was saying, but that doesn't mean there weren't patriots, dupes, and true believers who followed those rationales earnestly.

We could say that for just about any power. There's rhetoric for any given time and place, and for Padme, idealistic rhetoric works best.

The heroism or decency of any CIS members is, as they say, an 'informed attribute'. General Grevious is simply a villain (a recent episode of the Clone Wars established he's not even interested in the rationale for the conflict, he just likes killing Jedi), the various corporate forces tend to be depicted as shady and corrupt; Count Dooku has a feigned air of nobility, Asajj Ventress is, well, a dark side force user, and what's left? An army of expendable robots. Where are the dupes, then?

The populations of these worlds who have gone along with the Confederacy, or other silent partners, I guess, but we're never shown nor heard about them onscreen - and the cartoon has ample space to toy with that idea.

 

[DarthPipes]

I always felt whatever legitimate argument the Seperatists had (and it was a legitimate one) they lost it the moment they aligned themselves with the Trade Federation and Commerce Guilds. You can't bemoan corruption in government and then turn around and join forces with that very same corruption. It destroys any credibility you have.

 

[hyzmarca]

But so far the biggest figures of the CIS were folks like Asajji Ventress, Durge and Grievous. They were mostly mercenaries and assassins or warlords, no real patriots of democracy there.

That their leadership was comprised of Corporate figures they knew had purely economic problems with the Bureaucrats (as in, they wanted more power for THEMSELVES) should've tipped them off something wasn't right.

Just because you're a business person doesn't mean you've given up with right to complain about taxation without representation, especially unfair illegal taxation.

 

[USS Avenger]

Just because you're a business person doesn't mean you've given up with right to complain about taxation without representation, especially unfair illegal taxation.

But they had repesentation, and how are we to know it was unfair and illegal? Seems they wanted to run their own government, where corporations would BE the government and owe no taxes at all. In fact they would in all likelihood be collecting taxes. They also went farther than to complain, everyone has the right to do that (hell I complain about my taxes all the time, but I have never advocated revolution ). They went so far as to declare their independence and start a war of aggression against the Republic because why? They didn't like the tariffs imposed on them? They gave up Democracy to form an Oligarchy, which by most people's defintion makes them the bad guys.

 

[Admiral_Young]

It could be argued that the Separatists were the "bad guys" from the point of view of the Republic. They were only created in the first place due to long term political manipulation from Darth Sidious who knew that he needed an enemy for the Republic to fight and defeat so he could build his army and create the Empire. Count Dooku as Sidious's apprentice was set up as a puppet leader of the Separatists while also working to undermine them as well. I believe there is a line from Padme who questions if they're actually on the right side of the war (referring to the Republic). I'm basically trying to say that the Separatists were duped into becoming the bad guys of the movies through the manipulation of the Sith. Their creation was a scam in order to collapse the Republic and create the Empire.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

In the fictional Clone Wars of the Star Wars Universe the Confederacy of Independent Systems or the Separatist if you will where the bad guys. Seems to me all they wanted was to escapce a Federal government that over taxed them, and was possible oppressive and corrupt. It was the same thing the United States did to the United Kingdom, and the same thing the Southern States did during the U.S. civil war. So whats the deal?

(My bolding)

I'm pretty sure that's not all the southern states wanted...