Why was Sisko Mad at Pickard

[TheGodBen]

Re: Why was Sisko Mad at Picard

Sisko had the right to be pissed at him.

I think theres an argument for that, as well as an argument for Picards side too, but it's never about right and wrong - just about the feeling.

Picard felt guilt for those that died while he was Borg. He knows control was taken away from him and he was a fleshy puppet, but the humanity in his still feels guilt. Sisko could know the same, but he'd still feel anger.

I completely agree, both Sisko and Picard had valid viewpoints in that scene. When I first saw it I didn't understand why Sisko was angry, I thought he was being a jerk for attacking Picard for something Picard himself feels bad about.

Then I remembered that Sisko only witnessed a small portion of what happened in BoBW. As an audience we saw everything from the perspective of Picard and the crew of the Enterprise, but Sisko did not. We know that Picard has struggled with his experience with the Borg because of what happened in Family and I Borg (and later, First Contact). Sisko did not witness any of this, so all he understands is that Picard was seemingly in charge of the ship which killed his wife.

Sisko didn't watch TNG like we all did.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

GodBen, I don't think I missed the point. Picard had no idea that Q would take the actions that he did if Picard refused to say he needed him. Q flung them into a new part of the galaxy and Picard did his job, which is to explore. Guinan told him the area was dangerous, but what could he do? They couldn't get back under their own power. The entire galaxy is dangerous in it's own way. If Picard had said at that second "Q, send us back" do you really think he would have? He obviously wanted them to meet the Borg for his own reasons. As to Picard trying to communicate with them, what else could he do? Attack them immediately? That wouldn't make sense. Try to run? They tried that and it didn't do any good. The second the Borg noticed them they were marked for assimilation.

 

[TheGodBen]

GodBen, I don't think I missed the point. Picard had no idea that Q would take the actions that he did if Picard refused to say he needed him. Q flung them into a new part of the galaxy and Picard did his job, which is to explore. Guinan told him the area was dangerous, but what could he do? They couldn't get back under their own power. The entire galaxy is dangerous in it's own way. If Picard had said at that second "Q, send us back" do you really think he would have? He obviously wanted them to meet the Borg for his own reasons. As to Picard trying to communicate with them, what else could he do? Attack them immediately? That wouldn't make sense. Try to run? They tried that and it didn't do any good. The second the Borg noticed them they were marked for assimilation.

Guinan didn't just say that the areas was dangerous, she said:

PICARD: Guinan, have your people been in this part of the galaxy?
GUINAN: Yes.
RIKER: What can you tell us?
GUINAN: Only that if I were you, I'd start back right now.

Very next scene:

PICARD: Captain's log, supplemental. The entity Q has flung the Enterprise to a distant part of the galaxy, which we are going to take the opportunity to explore.

They then found a class M planet, the cities on it were destroyed and then a Borg Cube showed up. They were two and a half years away from the nearest starbase.

Now if one of your closest friends, somebody who you have found in the past to have insight beyond that which can be explained, gave you a warning to leave a place because you are in extreme danger, would you ignore them and "take the opportunity to explore?"

Picard knew that Q was putting him to the test (and Picard knows that Q's tests are never fair), and he was warned by somebody from that region of space that they should get the hell out of there. Both his enemy and his friend foreshadowed extreme danger. Picard ignored them thinking that the Enterprise could handle whatever Q was trying to test them with.

Is Q responsible for the early encounter with the Borg? Yes, I never claimed otherwise. Is Picard? Yes, partly. Your initial claim was that Picard had nothing to do with the early encounter with the Borg. The script says otherwise.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Do you really think Q would have just let them go? Q had a point to make and he wanted them to meet the Borg. Do you really think he would just give up on that? How do we know the Borg didn't detect them as soon as the 'popped' in?

The primary mission of Starfleet is to explore the unknown, not to run from it if your bartender is upset by it.

Can you really see Picard or any other Starfleet Captain put in this situation just flying in a straight line towards home for 2 and 1/2 years without attempting to explore? I think your expectations of Picard are unrealistic.

 

[TheGodBen]

Hypothetical: The captain of a US submarine is whisked away by an underwater current and finds himself in the accidentally in Chinese waters. The engines are damaged and it would take him two months to reach the nearest friendly port. He is warned that they are in great danger and need to get out of there as fast as they can. Instead he decides to take the opportunity to map the region as no US ship has been allowed into these waters before and his curiosity gets the better of him.

Chinese ships then show up and attack him. 18 crew members die in the attack before he is magically whisked home by a second underwater current. The incident leads the Chinese to declare war on the US and the follow up with an attack that kills 11,000 US soldiers. And that it just the first wave.

Sure, the Chinese may have found the US submarine in their water anyway, but don't you think he should have at least tried to prevent the conflict?

I know that Starfleet isn't a purely military organisation, that it is an important part of Picard's job to explore. But given all the warnings he was given, and the fact that he had no chance to call for help (or send a warning) if something bad did happen, then I would expect him to not hang around in a dangerous place just because he's feeling curious.


And you denigrate Guinan by referring to her as just a bartender. Quark was just a bartender, Guinan and Picard had a special relationship. He knew she had insights beyond those of the rest of the crew. That's why he went to her for advice in Measure of a Man, and why he risked the Enterprise-C in Yesterday's Enterprise. Besides, she came from that region of space and saw first hand what the Borg can do.

 

[Mr Awe]

I can understand the pain that Benjamine felt over Jennifers death, however, he must have understood that Pickard was not acting on his own, he was under the influence of The Borg.

Who the fuck is "Pickard"?

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Maybe more of the blame should be placed on Guinan! Maybe instead of giving one of her usual vague as hell warnings she could have actually said "Picard, we're in Borg space. I need to tell you about them now!". Even if she had though, I don't think it would have done any good. Once they were transported to Borg space they were going to meet the Borg no matter what because that is what Q wanted.

I don't think your submarine analogy is really applicable. Apples and Oranges. The MAIN GOAL of Starfleet is exploration. Yes they are a military organization charged with protecting the Federation, but their primary function is to seek out strange new life forms and worlds! Starfleet doesn't turn back from that, it doesn't matter if Q, the Borg, the Hirogen, etc. are placed in their way. More than that we see again and again how important exploration is to Picard personally.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ And comparing the Borg to the Chinese really doesn't work. If the aforementioned ship captain had suddenly found himself and his ship in Chinese territory, they would surely already know this, and they *would* leave immediately. There's nowhere on Earth with a threat or an unknown quantity even remotely like the Borg.

That being said: I can definitely see why Sisko would be pissed. Even if he had known full well the story behind how and why Picard became Locutus (which I always assumed he did).

If I'd been in that situation, I would have probably taken a swing at Picard, or at least openly yelled at him. True, Picard was forced against his will to become Locutus, and thus can't be blamed for anything that happened after that. But I quite frankly would not care. I'd find it VERY hard to get over the anger and shock and bitterness. I know I have no right to feel that way, but hey, I'm only human.

 

[TheGodBen]

Well you can call me a coward if you wish, but were it me in that situation then I wouldn't risk the lives of my crew after being warned. Picard is partly to blame for the first encounter with the Borg, and he is partly to blame for them attacking earlier than they were otherwise going to. I still think he's a good captain, he's just a little arrogant. He is French, after all.

 

[Nebusj]

Maybe more of the blame should be placed on Guinan! Maybe instead of giving one of her usual vague as hell warnings she could have actually said "Picard, we're in Borg space. I need to tell you about them now!". Even if she had though, I don't think it would have done any good. Once they were transported to Borg space they were going to meet the Borg no matter what because that is what Q wanted.

Yeah, that was an aggravating thing in that episode. Guinan keeps insisting she can't tell anything more than verifying whatever Picard has just found out and warning they have to leave now. If she'd actually said what she could have said, that this is space where the Borg are, this is the Borg power, this is how they will investigate the ship when they notice it, maybe Picard couldn't have avoided the Borg after all but at least he could have made an informed decision.

 

[Timo]

I'm not sure Guinan really knew all that much about the Borg, though. She wasn't really there when her world was assimilated - and the superficial way she described that event in "Q Who?" might be taken to suggest that she had misconceptions. Certainly the "they don't do anything piecemeal" thing was misleading at best, and possibly prevented our heroes from exploiting a Borg weakness.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jim Steele]

Why was Sisko Mad at Pickard

Because DS9 actually bothered to feature believable human beings.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sisko really wanted to know: where were the flying cars? He doesn't see any flying cars! Why? Why? WHY?

 

[Vezner]

Re: Why was Sisko Mad at Picard

The Borg and Q were responsible for Jennifer's death. Picard had nothing to do with it. Picard didn't go out "looking for the Borg". Q showed up and was being a dick as usual, and sent them there to teach them one of his lessons.

I actually registered here just to correct you on this. You seem to have missed the entire point of "Q Who?"

Picard was arrogant and told Q that he didn't need his help as they were ready to meet whatever they would encounter in space. Q flung them thousands of light-years away to put that assertion to the test. Guinan warned them to head home immediately as this region of space was dangerous. Picard ignored her warning and started exploring the area. The Borg cube showed up. Guinan warned Picard that they are very dangerous and cannot be reasoned with. Picard disregarded her and tried to communicate with the Borg. The Borg kicked the Enterprise's ass and Picard realised he was being arrogant and begged Q to send them home. At the end of the episode Picard realised that the Borg would be coming for them now and it was all because he was too arrogant.

These events led to the Borg attack at Wolf 359 which killed 11,000 people, including Jennifer. So even if we ignore the fact that Picard was one of the Borg on the ship which killed all those people, he was still responsible for the ship being there in the first place.

Sisko had the right to be pissed at him.

I totally disagree. IMO the only ones who are responsible are the Borg. It was them that assimilated Picard with the intent of wiping out humanity. It was the Borg ship that blew up the starships at Wolf 359, thus killing 11,000 crew. It was the Borg that killed Jennifer. As I recall, neither Picard nor Q were holding a gun to the Borg's collective heads forcing them to commit these aggressive acts. Blaming Picard or even Q for what happened is like blaming the people of America for what happened on 9/11. It just doesn't make sense and lets the real perpetrators get away without having full responsiblity for their actions.