Why was Mulgrew so polarizing?

[Guy Gardener]

almost every woman I know above the age of 23 is a mother. MIlf seems redundant unless the majority of the women you now are not mothers. as in the case of people still young and at school and meet other eoples hot mothers alll the time andd have to restrain themselves from being inappropriate.

Cougars are 40+ and jaguars are 50 +.

 

[Praetor]

I didn't know there were jaguars.

 

[teya]

^ I didn't either.

Hmmm. I'm a jaguar. I like that. They're sleek.

 

[exodus]

So I guess that makes Mulgrew an Alley Cat?

I'm sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

 

[joyofvgr]

almost every woman I know above the age of 23 is a mother. MIlf seems redundant unless the majority of the women you now are not mothers. as in the case of people still young and at school and meet other eoples hot mothers alll the time andd have to restrain themselves from being inappropriate.

Cougars are 40+ and jaguars are 50 +.

My understanding was the level of aggression involved. I thought MILF was somewhat of a compliment, while cougar was an aggressive woman over 40. Charlie Sheen's mother in Two in a Half Men comes to mind, but I guess she's actually be a Jaguar.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You've all never watched JPod? One of Canada's greatest accomplishments.

Old defiinitions of "old" used to be strict.

Anne Bancroft was only 37 when she starred in the Graduate, barely 7 years senior to Dustin. But then the Goldn Grls where all between 49 and 55 when the show started, and bea Arthur and Estelle getty were born the same year despite playing mother and dughter...

Do you all remember the word "Spinster"? It was only until recently that all unmarried woman over 30 were taken to the country and put out of their misery then sold as pate, all the while us men who kept getting older and older enjoyed having intercourse with smaller and smaller fractions of our age without the slightest stink of impropriety.

We live in a new golden age where people in their 40s who think they're 18 don't to put up with less than they deserve. Yay!

 

[Rii]

Yeah, sometimes it's better to like the character and keep the actor separate.

I've never understood the interest some folks seem to have in actors outside their performances. I don't know or care to know anything about Mulgrew, as for Janeway I found her an uninteresting Captain, but a credible one. The former quality stems from the writer's room, the latter from Mulgrew herself.

 

[BillJ]

Yeah, sometimes it's better to like the character and keep the actor separate.

I've never understood the interest some folks seem to have in actors outside their performances. I don't know or care to know anything about Mulgrew...

Wow! My thoughts exactly. Afraid to post them here... somebody would string me up and set me on fire.

 

[rramarr]

The federation had to make up for that Janice Lester incident on ST: TOS "Turnabout Intruder" where the show came off as chauvinistic. It gave birth to Janeway. As a captain who had to be mature and not too much of a diva. In control but not overpowering while speaking with authority and not sounding to use much hubris like a beotch. She was being sized-up and setup for failure without a great supporting cast that eventually came along in a way as previously unconsidered charms in the rough. She dealt with them like the hidden jewels of a sophisticated woman, maternally and cautiously, stern and confidentially that she's running the show. There was social-developmental milestones being set by crew members being cared for in a pseudo-maternal way that bonds the crew into a dysfunctional but appropriately functioning platoon of whirring fleet officers through the universe at warp speeds comfortable enough to keep the crew obliviously to the dysfunction pseudo-family makeup together. Mr. Tuvok, Neelix, and 7of9, never found or could have found a caregiving captain so far aways from home.

I'm sleep and don't know where I am writing or about whom.

 

[JustKate]

Yeah, sometimes it's better to like the character and keep the actor separate.

I've never understood the interest some folks seem to have in actors outside their performances. I don't know or care to know anything about Mulgrew...

Wow! My thoughts exactly. Afraid to post them here... somebody would string me up and set me on fire.

The same is true for writers - I went through a phase where I read a number of biographies of some of my favorite writers, and my advice is: Don't. You will find out things you'd rather not know, and by that, I'm not talking about "shocking revelations" - I mean that you must be prepared to find out that somebody who writes these profound things is in his private life a total jerk. Or not. But the thing is, genius in writing doesn't translate to genius, or even competence, in living. And this is just as true - in fact, it's probably more true - for acting and actors.

 

[Robotech Master]

Why was Mulgrew so polarizing?

Maybe she was a polar bear!!

No, but seriously, I never had a problem with Mulgrew. She's a fine actress.

My problems were all with Janeway, her erratic decisions, and the way the writers handled the character.

I had an inkling that something was wrong in season 2 (3?) when Janeway's holodeck fantasy was to be some British nanny. Seriously?

And it was okay for her to endanger the ship for her holo-lover, but she would flipflop on holo rights for the Doctor? Speaking of that, what the hell ever happened to her relationship with Chakotay??

And the final straw was Endgame when Janeway became the time-crazed Annorax from Year Of Hell.

I won't even get into all the flip-flopping on the Prime Directive.

 

[Praetor]

I've never understood the interest some folks seem to have in actors outside their performances. I don't know or care to know anything about Mulgrew...

Wow! My thoughts exactly. Afraid to post them here... somebody would string me up and set me on fire.

The same is true for writers - I went through a phase where I read a number of biographies of some of my favorite writers, and my advice is: Don't. You will find out things you'd rather not know, and by that, I'm not talking about "shocking revelations" - I mean that you must be prepared to find out that somebody who writes these profound things is in his private life a total jerk. Or not. But the thing is, genius in writing doesn't translate to genius, or even competence, in living. And this is just as true - in fact, it's probably more true - for acting and actors.

Very, very well said. If you start poking around for more info, you'd better be prepared for the possibility that your favorite actor/writer/whoever might be (*gasp*) a complete asshat. If you're not prepared, don't start poking around.

The federation had to make up for that Janice Lester incident on ST: TOS "Turnabout Intruder" where the show came off as chauvinistic. It gave birth to Janeway. As a captain who had to be mature and not too much of a diva. In control but not overpowering while speaking with authority and not sounding to use much hubris like a beotch. She was being sized-up and setup for failure without a great supporting cast that eventually came along in a way as previously unconsidered charms in the rough. She dealt with them like the hidden jewels of a sophisticated woman, maternally and cautiously, stern and confidentially that she's running the show. There was social-developmental milestones being set by crew members being cared for in a pseudo-maternal way that bonds the crew into a dysfunctional but appropriately functioning platoon of whirring fleet officers through the universe at warp speeds comfortable enough to keep the crew obliviously to the dysfunction pseudo-family makeup together. Mr. Tuvok, Neelix, and 7of9, never found or could have found a caregiving captain so far aways from home.

I'm sleep and don't know where I am writing or about whom.

Um, what?

We already had our first female captain (of the Saratoga) in Star Trek IV. There were several more on TNG, including Tryla Scott, the youngest officer to make Captain at the time from 'Conspiracy,' and Geordi's mom, Silva LaForge, who perhaps not coincidentally played the Saratoga captain in Star Trek IV. (It always made me happy that Ben Vereen was Geordi's dad. )

IMO, we're best of retconning crazy Janice Lester's dialog to mean that Kirk's personal life wouldn't allow her into it, and that she went through some weird psychological displacement thing after which she actually wanted to live his life and prove she could do it better. (Kinda make sense in a weird, crazy way.)

Just because the 1960s weren't ready for a female in command doesn't mean the 2260s weren't.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Oh, Janis' dialog if you actually reread it can be understood to be a little more vague than what we assume the spirit of the commentary was.

JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.
KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.

What I find hilarious is that if starfleet really has a no girls policy in Kirks time, but Hernandez, obviously a woman, was given the second NX Class Starship off the production line... What the hell did Hernandez do to disqualify her entire gender for the next two hundred years from the command track?

I just had a riduicluous thought.

What if Starfleet never got rid of their their no girls policy, but all the so called female commanders are really post op transsexuals who were not overly happy about being born men. yes, even Geordi's mum.

Completely ridiculous.

Then again if her blunder was so incredibly disastrous as to black ball her gender, then maybe possibly "this cockup" also blackballed Latinos, since I don't recall seeing many in the TOS era?

 

[Robotech Master]

^There was a Commodore Mendez in 'The Menagerie'

I think there were a few others too.

 

[Praetor]

Oh, Janis' dialog if you actually reread it can be understood to be a little more vague than what we assume the spirit of the commentary was.

JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.
KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.

Exactly. Very vague. I chose to believe it meant that a commanding starship precludes settling down and having a wife. I believe Kirk even said something along those lines earlier in the series.

What I find hilarious is that if starfleet really has a no girls policy in Kirks time, but Hernandez, obviously a woman, was given the second NX Class Starship off the production line... What the hell did Hernandez do to disqualify her entire gender for the next two hundred years from the command track?

Spoiler: Well...

Apparently she and all but, what, two of her crew and her ship got swept to the Gamma Quadrant and died after meeting the Caeliar who caused that Borg problem when Janeway got eaten.

 

[rramarr]

The federation had to make up for that Janice Lester incident on ST: TOS "Turnabout Intruder" where the show came off as chauvinistic. It gave birth to Janeway.

Um, what?

We already had our first female captain (of the Saratoga) in Star Trek IV. There were several more on TNG, including Tryla Scott, the youngest officer to make Captain at the time from 'Conspiracy,' and Geordi's mom, Silva LaForge, who perhaps not coincidentally played the Saratoga captain in Star Trek IV. (It always made me happy that Ben Vereen was Geordi's dad. )

IMO, we're best of retconning crazy Janice Lester's dialog to mean that Kirk's personal life wouldn't allow her into it, and that she went through some weird psychological displacement thing after which she actually wanted to live his life and prove she could do it better. (Kinda make sense in a weird, crazy way.)

Just because the 1960s weren't ready for a female in command doesn't mean the 2260s weren't.

Oh, Janis' dialog if you actually reread it can be understood to be a little more vague than what we assume the spirit of the commentary was.

JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.
KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.

What I find hilarious is that if starfleet really has a no girls policy in Kirks time, but Hernandez, obviously a woman, was given the second NX Class Starship off the production line... What the hell did Hernandez do to disqualify her entire gender for the next two hundred years from the command track?

I was sleep writing when I wrote that - I mean the words were moving and everything so thanks for picking up on my main point.

I believe Shatner mentioned that the show continued to get heat from feminist groups even though there were other female captains being shown they would not settle until one was the lead of the series.

 

[Praetor]

I was sleep writing when I wrote that - I mean the words were moving and everything so thanks for picking up on my main point.

I believe Shatner mentioned that the show continued to get heat from feminist groups even though there were other female captains being shown they would not settle until one was the lead of the series.

Really? That's odd to me. I'm not saying it's not understandable. Just odd to me.

Really then, we might argue that the fact that the 'new Captain' was a woman was more the 'polarizing problem' than Mulgrew. Mulgrew was just the face of it.

Did anyone in fandom voice such a concern about The Sisko being black? I should hope not. Similarly, there should have been no qualms over a female captain. Equal people. Equals. Not black or white or male or female. People.

That's what 'Star Trek' is all about, right?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Really?

All I ever heard was at the times these people were cast was "Isn't it nice to have an African American as a Captain" ...Of course he wasn't a Captain for the first half of the series. I don't know how that translated into "Uncle Tom" giving the lead "second banana rank" but hells it worked, DS9 was a shit posting that only deserved the application of a Commander level Officer before the finding of the Wormhole... If they were going to or had to replace Sisko, you'd be best assured that DS9 then have required an admiral or a commodore at the very least... Although maybe the idea to eventually promote Ben to Captain to show that his awesomeness was recognized and rewarded, because I did get butterflies when they put that fourth pip on his collar, was a foreplanned benchmark by TPTB to march toward. (You understand how I am mocking Harry Kim this time?) And equally all I ever heard at the time Janeway was cast was "Isn't it nice to have an Woman as a Captain".

There was no negativity.

In theory it was a golden age where the stood upon minorities (Yes, women.) got that boot off their neck finaly and where thrust into the spotlight with an illusion (its not hard to forget that these are just actors when we're juxtaposing real and unreal like this.) of civil respectability and power. It was good to have a female Captain and it was well past time to have a female captain and it didn't feel like a stunt mostly.

Though Sisko was "The Black Captain" for about two seconds, meanwhile Janeway never really escaped being the "Female Captain" because there was so little else going on with the character... Archer about as well and consistently developed as Janeway also never escaped his token lable of being the "Intellectually Retarded Captain".

 

[Praetor]

In theory it was a golden age where the stood upon minorities (Yes, women.) got that boot off their neck finaly and where thrust into the spotlight with an illusion (its not hard to forget that these are just actors when we're juxtaposing real and unreal like this.) of civil respectability and power. It was good to have a female Captain and it was well past time to have a female captain and it didn't feel like a stunt mostly.

My thinking too.

Though Sisko was "The Black Captain" for about two seconds, meanwhile Janeway never really escaped being the "Female Captain" because there was so little else going on with the character... Archer about as well and consistently developed as Janeway also never escaped his token label of being the "Intellectually Retarded Captain".

That's probably most of it, I bet - since the writing was of a lesser quality, Janeway sank down into the a target for the 'female captain' stigma.

Still not Mulgrew's fault.

 

[Gotham Central]

Really?

All I ever heard was at the times these people were cast was "Isn't it nice to have an African American as a Captain" ...Of course he wasn't a Captain for the first half of the series. I don't know how that translated into "Uncle Tom" giving the lead "second banana rank" but hells it worked, DS9 was a shit posting that only deserved the application of a Commander level Officer before the finding of the Wormhole... If they were going to or had to replace Sisko, you'd be best assured that DS9 then have required an admiral or a commodore at the very least... Although maybe the idea to eventually promote Ben to Captain to show that his awesomeness was recognized and rewarded, because I did get butterflies when they put that fourth pip on his collar, was a foreplanned benchmark by TPTB to march toward. (You understand how I am mocking Harry Kim this time?) And equally all I ever heard at the time Janeway was cast was "Isn't it nice to have an Woman as a Captain".

There was no negativity.

In theory it was a golden age where the stood upon minorities (Yes, women.) got that boot off their neck finaly and where thrust into the spotlight with an illusion (its not hard to forget that these are just actors when we're juxtaposing real and unreal like this.) of civil respectability and power. It was good to have a female Captain and it was well past time to have a female captain and it didn't feel like a stunt mostly.

Though Sisko was "The Black Captain" for about two seconds, meanwhile Janeway never really escaped being the "Female Captain" because there was so little else going on with the character... Archer about as well and consistently developed as Janeway also never escaped his token lable of being the "Intellectually Retarded Captain".

I think the distinction was also caused by differences in the fan base. I'm a black American and I think Sisko is awesome. However, his awesomeness had nothing to do with his ethnicity and everything to do with the fact that he was shown to be a badass. Fans of Sisko never spend much time thinking about his etnicity. If you go into the DS9 board its almost never discussed.

Janeway, however, was defined by her gender. Not only that, a large part of her fan base was built almost exclusively on that trait.Thus you never move beyond the fact that she is a woman precisely because her fans won't let you forget that she is. Thus she is stuck being the "female." Just look at some of the posts discussing ALL of the captains. eventually someone will mention that she is a woman and that's why they love her.